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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.0.57

I want to briefly share the experience of one of my constituents, who recently returned to work. She said that she was disappointed to find that the lactation room was being shared with blood donation and first aid. She added that there were overfilled yellow hazard bins and blood splatters on the pillows, and that the fridge that she was supposed to store her breast milk in was being used as a surface for blood collection. She felt that that was unhygienic and that it was a possible health and safety issue. When she raised the matter with her employer, she was told that it was that room or nothing. Thankfully, an office space has been reallocated for her. Does the minister accept that, although there is existing guidance, some women are still not provided with a private, healthy and safe environment to express milk at work? Is he prepared to meet me to discuss how the Breastfeeding etc (Scotland) Act 2005 can be strengthened?

Rachael Hamilton

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25510

General Question Time

I want to briefly share the experience of one of my constituents, who recently returned to work. She said that she was disappointed to find that the lactation room was being shared with blood donation and first aid. She added that there were overfilled yellow hazard bins and blood splatters on the pillows, and that the fridge that she was supposed to store her breast milk in was being used as a surface for blood collection. She felt that that was unhygienic and that it was a possible health and safety issue. When she raised the matter with her employer, she was told that it was that room or nothing. Thankfully, an office space has been reallocated for her. Does the minister accept that, although there is existing guidance, some women are still not provided with a private, healthy and safe environment to express milk at work? Is he prepared to meet me to discuss how the Breastfeeding etc (Scotland) Act 2005 can be strengthened?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.0.58

I recognise the concerning set of circumstances that Rachael Hamilton has narrated to Parliament. We are in a period of refreshing our fair work guidance. I am happy to take on board the issues that the member raises and I am more than happy to meet her to discuss them in more detail.

Tom Arthur

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25491

General Question Time

I recognise the concerning set of circumstances that Rachael Hamilton has narrated to Parliament. We are in a period of refreshing our fair work guidance. I am happy to take on board the issues that the member raises and I am more than happy to meet her to discuss them in more detail.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.0.59

That concludes general question time.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

General Question Time

That concludes general question time.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.2

I want to concentrate my first question today on the announcement this morning that the Grangemouth refinery will shut after 100 years of operation. The decision to close Scotland’s only refinery will see 400 jobs lost directly at Grangemouth. That is a devastating blow to the workforce, the Falkirk area and the entire Scottish economy. Supporting the employees at this difficult time must be the priority of both of Scotland’s Governments. A PWC report that was published this morning says that the economic contribution of the refinery, supply chain and employee spending was £403.6 million in 2023 and that the refinery is estimated to support 2,800 jobs across Scotland. Will the First Minister outline his Government’s response to the announcement and say what support the Scottish Government will put in place to support the employees at this difficult time?

1. Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

First Minister’s Question Time

I want to concentrate my first question today on the announcement this morning that the Grangemouth refinery will shut after 100 years of operation. The decision to close Scotland’s only refinery will see 400 jobs lost directly at Grangemouth. That is a devastating blow to the workforce, the Falkirk area and the entire Scottish economy. Supporting the employees at this difficult time must be the priority of both of Scotland’s Governments. A PWC report that was published this morning says that the economic contribution of the refinery, supply chain and employee spending was £403.6 million in 2023 and that the refinery is estimated to support 2,800 jobs across Scotland. Will the First Minister outline his Government’s response to the announcement and say what support the Scottish Government will put in place to support the employees at this difficult time?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.3

This is a profoundly serious issue. My first thoughts at the outset of the handling of the issue are with the workforce, who will face great uncertainty as a consequence of the announcement that has been made this morning by Petroineos. There has been extensive engagement and dialogue between the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom Government with Petroineos about the issue. Both Governments have made the case for refining to be continued for as long as possible, and certainly not for the announcement to be made today that refining will end in quarter 2 of 2025. Mr Ross is correct: that will raise significant economic implications for Scotland. It was for that reason that I raised the issue in my first conversation with the Prime Minister after the election, on 5 July, and there has been good and sustained engagement with the UK Government on the question. This morning, both Governments have announced the approval of the Falkirk and Grangemouth growth deal. That will see the investment of £100 million in the locality, which will provide assistance for it to recover from this significant economic shock. Secondly, immediate tailored career support for workers will be made available to support employees to find employment should they face those issues. Thirdly, there will be investment in the site’s long-term future. The Scottish Government and United Kingdom Government have jointly funded the project willow study, which has identified a shortlist of credible options to begin the building of a new long-term industry at the refinery site, including low-carbon hydrogen, clean e-fuels and sustainable aviation fuels. We will put in all the effort that we can to support the workforce at this difficult and worrying time. There will be intense dialogue with the trade unions, the company and Falkirk Council on those questions. I give the Parliament the assurance that we will update members as the events take their course. The Government’s commitment to that and to working collaboratively with the United Kingdom Government is absolute. We will support the workers of Grangemouth in their time of need.

The First Minister (John Swinney)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

This is a profoundly serious issue. My first thoughts at the outset of the handling of the issue are with the workforce, who will face great uncertainty as a consequence of the announcement that has been made this morning by Petroineos. There has been extensive engagement and dialogue between the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom Government with Petroineos about the issue. Both Governments have made the case for refining to be continued for as long as possible, and certainly not for the announcement to be made today that refining will end in quarter 2 of 2025. Mr Ross is correct: that will raise significant economic implications for Scotland. It was for that reason that I raised the issue in my first conversation with the Prime Minister after the election, on 5 July, and there has been good and sustained engagement with the UK Government on the question. This morning, both Governments have announced the approval of the Falkirk and Grangemouth growth deal. That will see the investment of £100 million in the locality, which will provide assistance for it to recover from this significant economic shock. Secondly, immediate tailored career support for workers will be made available to support employees to find employment should they face those issues. Thirdly, there will be investment in the site’s long-term future. The Scottish Government and United Kingdom Government have jointly funded the project willow study, which has identified a shortlist of credible options to begin the building of a new long-term industry at the refinery site, including low-carbon hydrogen, clean e-fuels and sustainable aviation fuels. We will put in all the effort that we can to support the workforce at this difficult and worrying time. There will be intense dialogue with the trade unions, the company and Falkirk Council on those questions. I give the Parliament the assurance that we will update members as the events take their course. The Government’s commitment to that and to working collaboratively with the United Kingdom Government is absolute. We will support the workers of Grangemouth in their time of need.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.4

It is right that the Parliament is united in supporting those workers at this difficult time. Scottish Conservative members for Central Scotland and, indeed, our entire group will work with both Governments to assist in any way that we can. I will move to another issue that has been dominating many of the conversations that we have all been having with constituents in the past few weeks. The winter fuel payment, which was shamelessly cut by the Labour Government at Westminster, was devolved to the Scottish Government. In Scotland, the decision not to pay that money to pensioners is for the Scottish National Party Government. In announcing its decision to scrap the winter fuel payment, the SNP must have known the impact that that would have on 900,000 pensioners in Scotland. Labour said that that policy would kill thousands of pensioners across the United Kingdom. Due to our colder climate, a disproportionate number of those are likely to be in Scotland. Does the First Minister accept that his Government’s decision will lead to unnecessary deaths in Scotland? If so, how many?

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

First Minister’s Question Time

It is right that the Parliament is united in supporting those workers at this difficult time. Scottish Conservative members for Central Scotland and, indeed, our entire group will work with both Governments to assist in any way that we can. I will move to another issue that has been dominating many of the conversations that we have all been having with constituents in the past few weeks. The winter fuel payment, which was shamelessly cut by the Labour Government at Westminster, was devolved to the Scottish Government. In Scotland, the decision not to pay that money to pensioners is for the Scottish National Party Government. In announcing its decision to scrap the winter fuel payment, the SNP must have known the impact that that would have on 900,000 pensioners in Scotland. Labour said that that policy would kill thousands of pensioners across the United Kingdom. Due to our colder climate, a disproportionate number of those are likely to be in Scotland. Does the First Minister accept that his Government’s decision will lead to unnecessary deaths in Scotland? If so, how many?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.5

I deeply regret the fact that the Scottish Government finds itself in this position. We fully expected the winter fuel payment to be devolved to the Scottish Government, and were planning to pay that support to pensioners in Scotland universally. That was our plan, and that is what we were working on. With 90 minutes’ notice, we were abruptly told that our budget would be cut by £160 million because of the United Kingdom Government’s decision. That is not of our making or planning, and it certainly is not our choice. Mr Ross also knows that, once the Scottish Government has established a budget for the year, we cannot increase the size of that budget unless there are positive consequential funding decisions from the United Kingdom Government. In this case, we have had a negative consequential financial decision that cuts our budget by £160 million. I very much regret the fact that we will not be able to make those payments universally, but we have suffered a budget cut from the United Kingdom Government, and the Scottish Government is responding to that accordingly.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

I deeply regret the fact that the Scottish Government finds itself in this position. We fully expected the winter fuel payment to be devolved to the Scottish Government, and were planning to pay that support to pensioners in Scotland universally. That was our plan, and that is what we were working on. With 90 minutes’ notice, we were abruptly told that our budget would be cut by £160 million because of the United Kingdom Government’s decision. That is not of our making or planning, and it certainly is not our choice. Mr Ross also knows that, once the Scottish Government has established a budget for the year, we cannot increase the size of that budget unless there are positive consequential funding decisions from the United Kingdom Government. In this case, we have had a negative consequential financial decision that cuts our budget by £160 million. I very much regret the fact that we will not be able to make those payments universally, but we have suffered a budget cut from the United Kingdom Government, and the Scottish Government is responding to that accordingly.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.6

It was a straightforward question, so I will ask it again. Does John Swinney believe—[Interruption.]

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

First Minister’s Question Time

It was a straightforward question, so I will ask it again. Does John Swinney believe—[Interruption.]

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.7

Let us hear Mr Ross.

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

First Minister’s Question Time

Let us hear Mr Ross.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.8

Does John Swinney believe that, as a result of the decision that was taken by SNP ministers in Scotland, there will be unnecessary deaths? If so, how many? He must know. John Swinney also said that it was always the plan to continue to deliver the payment universally. That is not true. The Scottish Government’s response to the consultation on the pension age winter heating payment, which was published in May, long before the Labour Government’s announcement, said that it would “continue to review the eligibility and scope of the pension age winter heating payment moving forward.” The SNP was considering cutting that payment back in May. [Interruption.]

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

First Minister’s Question Time

Does John Swinney believe that, as a result of the decision that was taken by SNP ministers in Scotland, there will be unnecessary deaths? If so, how many? He must know. John Swinney also said that it was always the plan to continue to deliver the payment universally. That is not true. The Scottish Government’s response to the consultation on the pension age winter heating payment, which was published in May, long before the Labour Government’s announcement, said that it would “continue to review the eligibility and scope of the pension age winter heating payment moving forward.” The SNP was considering cutting that payment back in May. [Interruption.]

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.9

Let us hear Mr Ross.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

First Minister’s Question Time

Let us hear Mr Ross.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.10

That is in black and white in its own document. Politics is about choices, and John Swinney’s Government has chosen to pass on Labour cuts that could see 900,000 Scottish pensioners losing out. The SNP could have mitigated those cuts. It has a budget of more than £50 billion, and just this week—

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

First Minister’s Question Time

That is in black and white in its own document. Politics is about choices, and John Swinney’s Government has chosen to pass on Labour cuts that could see 900,000 Scottish pensioners losing out. The SNP could have mitigated those cuts. It has a budget of more than £50 billion, and just this week—

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.11

Can we have a question, Mr Ross.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

First Minister’s Question Time

Can we have a question, Mr Ross.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.12

—the number in Scottish Government’s bloated civil service has reached a record high. Why are public sector pen-pushers more important to John Swinney than stopping pensioners from freezing in their homes?

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

First Minister’s Question Time

—the number in Scottish Government’s bloated civil service has reached a record high. Why are public sector pen-pushers more important to John Swinney than stopping pensioners from freezing in their homes?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.13

In his last weeks in office as Conservative leader, Douglas Ross really is plumbing the depths in the questions that he puts in Parliament today. His interpretation of the document is, I think, a vindication of that comment. Douglas Ross knows full well the way in which the Scottish Government’s finances operate. If we suffer a cut of £160 million in our budget courtesy of the Labour Government, we have to respond to that, and we have to act accordingly. I need no lessons from Douglas Ross about mitigating decisions of the United Kingdom Government, because the Scottish Government is currently mitigating a series of decisions that were taken by Douglas Ross and his colleagues on an on-going basis on the bedroom tax and other measures. We picked up the pieces because of the odious decisions that were taken by the Conservative Government in London, so I will take no lessons from Douglas Ross on that point. Douglas Ross says to me that there are choices. Of course there are choices. If we followed the Conservatives on what they have said about tax and spending, I would not be cutting the budget by £160 million—I would be cutting it by £2 billion, because that is the reality of the position that the Conservatives put to Parliament. I will take no lessons today from Douglas Ross, as he desperately clutches at straws in his last weeks in office.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

In his last weeks in office as Conservative leader, Douglas Ross really is plumbing the depths in the questions that he puts in Parliament today. His interpretation of the document is, I think, a vindication of that comment. Douglas Ross knows full well the way in which the Scottish Government’s finances operate. If we suffer a cut of £160 million in our budget courtesy of the Labour Government, we have to respond to that, and we have to act accordingly. I need no lessons from Douglas Ross about mitigating decisions of the United Kingdom Government, because the Scottish Government is currently mitigating a series of decisions that were taken by Douglas Ross and his colleagues on an on-going basis on the bedroom tax and other measures. We picked up the pieces because of the odious decisions that were taken by the Conservative Government in London, so I will take no lessons from Douglas Ross on that point. Douglas Ross says to me that there are choices. Of course there are choices. If we followed the Conservatives on what they have said about tax and spending, I would not be cutting the budget by £160 million—I would be cutting it by £2 billion, because that is the reality of the position that the Conservatives put to Parliament. I will take no lessons today from Douglas Ross, as he desperately clutches at straws in his last weeks in office.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.14

Standing up for Scotland’s pensioners is not clutching at straws. Is it not telling that John Swinney has now twice been asked how many in Scotland could die as a result of his policy, and he refuses to answer? It is in black and white that the SNP was considering that in May this year. The SNP repeatedly calls for more powers, but when it is given the chance to act, it runs in the opposite direction and blames Westminster. Surely the point of devolution is to make different choices, especially when lives are at risk—[Interruption.]

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

First Minister’s Question Time

Standing up for Scotland’s pensioners is not clutching at straws. Is it not telling that John Swinney has now twice been asked how many in Scotland could die as a result of his policy, and he refuses to answer? It is in black and white that the SNP was considering that in May this year. The SNP repeatedly calls for more powers, but when it is given the chance to act, it runs in the opposite direction and blames Westminster. Surely the point of devolution is to make different choices, especially when lives are at risk—[Interruption.]

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.15

I am finding it very difficult to hear, as I am sure other members are, too. Let us conduct ourselves in a courteous and respectful manner, and let us hear one another.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

First Minister’s Question Time

I am finding it very difficult to hear, as I am sure other members are, too. Let us conduct ourselves in a courteous and respectful manner, and let us hear one another.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.16

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I was saying that surely the point of devolution is to make different choices, especially when lives are at risk. You cannot oppose Labour cuts at Westminster and simply pass them on at Holyrood by pretending that there is nothing that you can do about it. Scotland is colder than the rest of the UK, and winter fuel payments must be an even greater priority here. The £160 million cost of the payments is just a fraction—0.3 per cent—of the Scottish Government’s £50 billion budget. Surely the SNP Government can find the money, if that is important to it. Why is keeping pensioners warm this winter not a priority for John Swinney?

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

First Minister’s Question Time

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I was saying that surely the point of devolution is to make different choices, especially when lives are at risk. You cannot oppose Labour cuts at Westminster and simply pass them on at Holyrood by pretending that there is nothing that you can do about it. Scotland is colder than the rest of the UK, and winter fuel payments must be an even greater priority here. The £160 million cost of the payments is just a fraction—0.3 per cent—of the Scottish Government’s £50 billion budget. Surely the SNP Government can find the money, if that is important to it. Why is keeping pensioners warm this winter not a priority for John Swinney?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.17

Douglas Ross raised a question about the exercise of new powers. When this Government acquired new powers, we took decisions to, for example, ask higher earners in Scotland to contribute more in taxation. I think that that was the right decision to make, because it has enabled us to fund the expansion of early learning and childcare so that families across the country have the best childcare offering in the whole United Kingdom. I am very proud that our Government has put that in place. That decision has also enabled us to spend more than £400 million on ensuring that we deliver the Scottish child payment, which is contributing—among other measures—to keeping 100,000 children out of poverty. Those are the choices that we have exercised as a Government, and I am very proud of them. The difficulty that we face on the issue of winter fuel payments is that—

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

Douglas Ross raised a question about the exercise of new powers. When this Government acquired new powers, we took decisions to, for example, ask higher earners in Scotland to contribute more in taxation. I think that that was the right decision to make, because it has enabled us to fund the expansion of early learning and childcare so that families across the country have the best childcare offering in the whole United Kingdom. I am very proud that our Government has put that in place. That decision has also enabled us to spend more than £400 million on ensuring that we deliver the Scottish child payment, which is contributing—among other measures—to keeping 100,000 children out of poverty. Those are the choices that we have exercised as a Government, and I am very proud of them. The difficulty that we face on the issue of winter fuel payments is that—

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.18

That is not a priority for the Scottish Government.

Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26000

First Minister’s Question Time

That is not a priority for the Scottish Government.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.19

Let us hear the First Minister.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

First Minister’s Question Time

Let us hear the First Minister.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.20

Within this financial year, our budget is being cut at the same time as we are affording pay increases for public sector workers—

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

Within this financial year, our budget is being cut at the same time as we are affording pay increases for public sector workers—

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.21

The point is about priorities.

Craig Hoy

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26000

First Minister’s Question Time

The point is about priorities.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.22

—such as nurses, teachers—[Interruption.]

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

—such as nurses, teachers—[Interruption.]

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.23

First Minister. To be quite frank, members know that they are not conducting themselves in a courteous and respectful manner. Where there have been previous opportunities to put questions, I would ask members to focus and listen.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

First Minister’s Question Time

First Minister. To be quite frank, members know that they are not conducting themselves in a courteous and respectful manner. Where there have been previous opportunities to put questions, I would ask members to focus and listen.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.24

At the same time as we have a budget cut of £160 million around winter fuel payments, we are affording more than £800 million to meet the additional costs of pay bills so that teachers, nurses and other members of the public services who are delivering vital services in our country—

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

At the same time as we have a budget cut of £160 million around winter fuel payments, we are affording more than £800 million to meet the additional costs of pay bills so that teachers, nurses and other members of the public services who are delivering vital services in our country—

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.25

This is about pensioners.

Craig Hoy

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26000

First Minister’s Question Time

This is about pensioners.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.26

Why are you still shouting at me, Mr Hoy? You have to listen to the Presiding Officer—[Interruption.] You have to listen to the Presiding Officer, and stop behaving badly.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

Why are you still shouting at me, Mr Hoy? You have to listen to the Presiding Officer—[Interruption.] You have to listen to the Presiding Officer, and stop behaving badly.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.27

I assure the First Minister that I am wholly prepared to chair this meeting. I will not allow any members to shout at one another, so let us start to conduct ourselves in a manner that is appropriate for this Parliament.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

First Minister’s Question Time

I assure the First Minister that I am wholly prepared to chair this meeting. I will not allow any members to shout at one another, so let us start to conduct ourselves in a manner that is appropriate for this Parliament.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.28

In the financial year that we face, in which we have an acute budget cut in relation to the winter fuel payments, this Government has been left with no choice. I will take absolutely no lessons from Douglas Ross, who supported every act of financial vandalism of the previous Conservative Government and every act of austerity that led to suffering among pensioners and families in our country. The Conservatives have no lessons to teach us.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

In the financial year that we face, in which we have an acute budget cut in relation to the winter fuel payments, this Government has been left with no choice. I will take absolutely no lessons from Douglas Ross, who supported every act of financial vandalism of the previous Conservative Government and every act of austerity that led to suffering among pensioners and families in our country. The Conservatives have no lessons to teach us.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.30

This morning, Petroineos confirmed its decision to decommission the refinery at Grangemouth. For the workforce, its families and the wider community, this will be a time of great anxiety. Since the refinery closure was first proposed, Labour has called for both of Scotland’s Governments to get round the table to find solutions. That is why Keir Starmer raised the issue with the First Minister during his first visit to Scotland after the election, and that is why the clear message this morning is that the United Kingdom Labour Government is ready to support the workforce and secure a viable long-term future for the site. I am sure that the First Minister, like me, welcomes that assurance. Will he join me in committing to continue that work, with the UK Government, in the interests of the Grangemouth community and Scotland’s energy security?

2. Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13949

First Minister’s Question Time

This morning, Petroineos confirmed its decision to decommission the refinery at Grangemouth. For the workforce, its families and the wider community, this will be a time of great anxiety. Since the refinery closure was first proposed, Labour has called for both of Scotland’s Governments to get round the table to find solutions. That is why Keir Starmer raised the issue with the First Minister during his first visit to Scotland after the election, and that is why the clear message this morning is that the United Kingdom Labour Government is ready to support the workforce and secure a viable long-term future for the site. I am sure that the First Minister, like me, welcomes that assurance. Will he join me in committing to continue that work, with the UK Government, in the interests of the Grangemouth community and Scotland’s energy security?

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.31

I am very happy to give that confirmation to Parliament today. That has been the spirit in which the Scottish Government has operated since Petroineos raised the issues some months ago. There was sustained engagement before the change of Government in July and that has carried on under the new Government. As I explained in my first answer to Mr Ross, this morning, the UK and Scottish Governments announced a series of measures that are designed to address the immediate issues. I assure Jackie Baillie that the Scottish Government will concentrate and focus on meeting the needs of the workforce at what I acknowledge will be an extremely worrying time.

The First Minister (John Swinney)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

I am very happy to give that confirmation to Parliament today. That has been the spirit in which the Scottish Government has operated since Petroineos raised the issues some months ago. There was sustained engagement before the change of Government in July and that has carried on under the new Government. As I explained in my first answer to Mr Ross, this morning, the UK and Scottish Governments announced a series of measures that are designed to address the immediate issues. I assure Jackie Baillie that the Scottish Government will concentrate and focus on meeting the needs of the workforce at what I acknowledge will be an extremely worrying time.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.32

I very much welcome that commitment from the First Minister. The plan that was announced today delivers a £100 million fund to drive growth in Grangemouth and to support the workforce. There will be investment in new energy projects; a new technology centre to support the use of low-carbon technologies; career and skills support for the existing workforce; and an employment hub to support emerging energy sectors and explore potential opportunities for Labour’s national wealth fund in clean technologies, such as hydrogen and clean aviation fuel. All that has been pulled together in the first nine weeks of a UK Labour Government, and it gives hope that there will be a strong industrial energy future at Grangemouth. I welcome the joint investment by both Governments. Does the First Minister agree that that shows how the people of Scotland benefit from the Labour Government’s approach, which is one of co-operation rather than conflict?

Jackie Baillie

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13949

First Minister’s Question Time

I very much welcome that commitment from the First Minister. The plan that was announced today delivers a £100 million fund to drive growth in Grangemouth and to support the workforce. There will be investment in new energy projects; a new technology centre to support the use of low-carbon technologies; career and skills support for the existing workforce; and an employment hub to support emerging energy sectors and explore potential opportunities for Labour’s national wealth fund in clean technologies, such as hydrogen and clean aviation fuel. All that has been pulled together in the first nine weeks of a UK Labour Government, and it gives hope that there will be a strong industrial energy future at Grangemouth. I welcome the joint investment by both Governments. Does the First Minister agree that that shows how the people of Scotland benefit from the Labour Government’s approach, which is one of co-operation rather than conflict?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.33

As a matter of fact—I have to be absolutely fair on this question—there was a lot of dialogue with the previous Conservative Government on the issue. The issue has been taken seriously by the United Kingdom Government of whatever colour, and it has certainly been taken deadly seriously by the Scottish Government. The project willow study, which is a really important part of research about viable alternatives for development of the site, predates the existing UK Government, but I am glad that it has been supported as a consequence of the announcements today. I very much agree about the basis of co-operation. It is no secret that the Scottish Government would like the United Kingdom Government to move faster on the authorising of the Acorn carbon capture and storage project. It has been of deep concern to me that promises about the authorisation of that scheme, which ministers in the previous United Kingdom Government made to me directly, have not been fulfilled. I feel deeply let down by the fact that that has not happened. Promises were given but not fulfilled. I have made the point to the Prime Minister that an early authorisation of the Acorn carbon capture and storage project would be a significant boost to the efforts to find new opportunities at the Grangemouth site. I hope that the United Kingdom Government is listening carefully to the words that I am saying to Parliament today.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

As a matter of fact—I have to be absolutely fair on this question—there was a lot of dialogue with the previous Conservative Government on the issue. The issue has been taken seriously by the United Kingdom Government of whatever colour, and it has certainly been taken deadly seriously by the Scottish Government. The project willow study, which is a really important part of research about viable alternatives for development of the site, predates the existing UK Government, but I am glad that it has been supported as a consequence of the announcements today. I very much agree about the basis of co-operation. It is no secret that the Scottish Government would like the United Kingdom Government to move faster on the authorising of the Acorn carbon capture and storage project. It has been of deep concern to me that promises about the authorisation of that scheme, which ministers in the previous United Kingdom Government made to me directly, have not been fulfilled. I feel deeply let down by the fact that that has not happened. Promises were given but not fulfilled. I have made the point to the Prime Minister that an early authorisation of the Acorn carbon capture and storage project would be a significant boost to the efforts to find new opportunities at the Grangemouth site. I hope that the United Kingdom Government is listening carefully to the words that I am saying to Parliament today.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.34

I think that the First Minister will find that the UK Labour Government has been not only been listening carefully but acting in the interests of the people of Scotland. The new national wealth fund did not exist before the Labour Government came to power, and that can make change happen. A UK Labour Government working with the Scottish Government is part of the promise that we made to Scots at the general election. Labour made a commitment that we would not leave communities behind. That is why we have got on with passing the legislation to set up Great British energy; awarding a record-breaking number of clean energy contracts; announcing the £100 million support package for Grangemouth alongside the Scottish Government; protecting Scotland’s industrial base; securing the well-paid jobs of the future—[Interruption.]

Jackie Baillie

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13949

First Minister’s Question Time

I think that the First Minister will find that the UK Labour Government has been not only been listening carefully but acting in the interests of the people of Scotland. The new national wealth fund did not exist before the Labour Government came to power, and that can make change happen. A UK Labour Government working with the Scottish Government is part of the promise that we made to Scots at the general election. Labour made a commitment that we would not leave communities behind. That is why we have got on with passing the legislation to set up Great British energy; awarding a record-breaking number of clean energy contracts; announcing the £100 million support package for Grangemouth alongside the Scottish Government; protecting Scotland’s industrial base; securing the well-paid jobs of the future—[Interruption.]

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.35

Let us hear Ms Baillie.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

First Minister’s Question Time

Let us hear Ms Baillie.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.36

—and delivering the transition to net zero. The new consensus does not appear to have lasted long on the Scottish National Party back benches. There is more that we could and should be doing here in Scotland. It has taken three years for the SNP to publish a green industrial strategy. Although I welcome the enthusiasm with which the First Minister has engaged with the UK Labour Government in the past few weeks, does he agree that, to deliver new investment, good jobs and energy security for Scotland, we need to step up action here as well?

Jackie Baillie

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13949

First Minister’s Question Time

—and delivering the transition to net zero. The new consensus does not appear to have lasted long on the Scottish National Party back benches. There is more that we could and should be doing here in Scotland. It has taken three years for the SNP to publish a green industrial strategy. Although I welcome the enthusiasm with which the First Minister has engaged with the UK Labour Government in the past few weeks, does he agree that, to deliver new investment, good jobs and energy security for Scotland, we need to step up action here as well?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.37

There is plenty of action on green energy and green opportunities in Scotland. One of my first engagements as First Minister was to announce the investment at the Ardersier port near Inverness. That was followed by the Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero and Energy announcing the investment at Sumitomo in Nigg, which is another formidable investment in the renewables sector. On Monday, I had the pleasure of being in Buckie to inaugurate the operations and maintenance facility of Ocean Winds, which is leading the development of the Moray East and Moray West offshore wind farms. That is all happening on the watch of the Scottish Government, and I am delighted that it is happening. Jackie Baillie is right that we must intensify the pace, which is why the green industrial strategy has been published. We would also be helped if we had control over the £150 million war chest that the Secretary of State for Scotland apparently has at his disposal. If the funding arrangements were working properly, we would have the money here for us to invest in the Scottish economy, to accelerate developments and, perhaps, to put even more than we have already have into the carbon capture and storage project that I was talking about a moment ago. I am all for working together, but let us make sure that we have the resources here to end austerity, which would allow us to invest in the economy. While we are on the subject of promises and what has been delivered by the Labour Government, Labour promised that it would reduce people’s fuel bills by £300, but they are going to go up by £149 on average. That is not the change that people in Scotland voted for.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

There is plenty of action on green energy and green opportunities in Scotland. One of my first engagements as First Minister was to announce the investment at the Ardersier port near Inverness. That was followed by the Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero and Energy announcing the investment at Sumitomo in Nigg, which is another formidable investment in the renewables sector. On Monday, I had the pleasure of being in Buckie to inaugurate the operations and maintenance facility of Ocean Winds, which is leading the development of the Moray East and Moray West offshore wind farms. That is all happening on the watch of the Scottish Government, and I am delighted that it is happening. Jackie Baillie is right that we must intensify the pace, which is why the green industrial strategy has been published. We would also be helped if we had control over the £150 million war chest that the Secretary of State for Scotland apparently has at his disposal. If the funding arrangements were working properly, we would have the money here for us to invest in the Scottish economy, to accelerate developments and, perhaps, to put even more than we have already have into the carbon capture and storage project that I was talking about a moment ago. I am all for working together, but let us make sure that we have the resources here to end austerity, which would allow us to invest in the economy. While we are on the subject of promises and what has been delivered by the Labour Government, Labour promised that it would reduce people’s fuel bills by £300, but they are going to go up by £149 on average. That is not the change that people in Scotland voted for.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.39

I certainly agree with the First Minister and others that our thoughts today must be with the workforce and the community affected by the announcement about Grangemouth. However, the truth is that the Government has been well aware for years that Grangemouth urgently needed a just transition plan, and yesterday’s so-called “Green Industrial Strategy” contained nothing new to achieve a fair transition away from polluting industries. The workforce and the community have been failed by the private owners, but they have also been failed by both Governments. Why has the Scottish Government produced a green industrial strategy that looks like it was written by oil and gas lobbyists and that contains no transition plan for Grangemouth?

3. Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14006

First Minister’s Question Time

I certainly agree with the First Minister and others that our thoughts today must be with the workforce and the community affected by the announcement about Grangemouth. However, the truth is that the Government has been well aware for years that Grangemouth urgently needed a just transition plan, and yesterday’s so-called “Green Industrial Strategy” contained nothing new to achieve a fair transition away from polluting industries. The workforce and the community have been failed by the private owners, but they have also been failed by both Governments. Why has the Scottish Government produced a green industrial strategy that looks like it was written by oil and gas lobbyists and that contains no transition plan for Grangemouth?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.40

I welcome the comments that Mr Harvie has put on the record about the workforce at Grangemouth—[Interruption.] I say to the Conservatives that I do not think that the hardship that is faced by the employees at Grangemouth is a laughing matter, to be honest. I welcome Mr Harvie’s comments about the workforce because it is important that Parliament acts with solidarity when members of the public face difficulties. In relation to the green industrial strategy, the first of the five opportunity areas in the strategy is about investment in the wind industry, which is a formidable contributor to that strategy. I know that Mr Harvie takes a different view from the Government on carbon capture and storage, but that is also an important element of our strategy, as is the development of financial products that will enable investment in the self-sustaining renewable energy industries that I have talked about, and the development of hydrogen-related possibilities, which have enormous significance, along with the export potential that can arise out of the investment that we are making in offshore wind. I hope that that detail gives Mr Harvie confidence that the green industrial strategy is meeting the needs of the workforce at Grangemouth and that it also applies across the Scottish economy by providing new opportunities for transition.

The First Minister (John Swinney)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

I welcome the comments that Mr Harvie has put on the record about the workforce at Grangemouth—[Interruption.] I say to the Conservatives that I do not think that the hardship that is faced by the employees at Grangemouth is a laughing matter, to be honest. I welcome Mr Harvie’s comments about the workforce because it is important that Parliament acts with solidarity when members of the public face difficulties. In relation to the green industrial strategy, the first of the five opportunity areas in the strategy is about investment in the wind industry, which is a formidable contributor to that strategy. I know that Mr Harvie takes a different view from the Government on carbon capture and storage, but that is also an important element of our strategy, as is the development of financial products that will enable investment in the self-sustaining renewable energy industries that I have talked about, and the development of hydrogen-related possibilities, which have enormous significance, along with the export potential that can arise out of the investment that we are making in offshore wind. I hope that that detail gives Mr Harvie confidence that the green industrial strategy is meeting the needs of the workforce at Grangemouth and that it also applies across the Scottish economy by providing new opportunities for transition.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.41

The news about Grangemouth this week makes it all the more important that the Government is truly honest about its climate action. However, the Government did not even want to tell Parliament about its legally required plan to make up for its missed targets. It slipped it out on Friday with no debate, no statement to Parliament and not even a press release about that legally required report. No wonder that the Government is embarrassed by it. It is supposed to show what new climate action it will take to make up for falling further behind on the climate, but it contains no new policy whatsoever. That comes after it has spent the past few weeks abandoning policies that the Greens achieved in Government: it has raided the nature restoration fund and the ScotWind money, and it is planning a big increase in rail fares, which the Greens had cut. How can the Government publish that report with no new policy in it and still expect to be taken seriously as it is rushing through a new climate bill that kicks this ever more urgent issue into ever longer grass?

Patrick Harvie

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14006

First Minister’s Question Time

The news about Grangemouth this week makes it all the more important that the Government is truly honest about its climate action. However, the Government did not even want to tell Parliament about its legally required plan to make up for its missed targets. It slipped it out on Friday with no debate, no statement to Parliament and not even a press release about that legally required report. No wonder that the Government is embarrassed by it. It is supposed to show what new climate action it will take to make up for falling further behind on the climate, but it contains no new policy whatsoever. That comes after it has spent the past few weeks abandoning policies that the Greens achieved in Government: it has raided the nature restoration fund and the ScotWind money, and it is planning a big increase in rail fares, which the Greens had cut. How can the Government publish that report with no new policy in it and still expect to be taken seriously as it is rushing through a new climate bill that kicks this ever more urgent issue into ever longer grass?

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.42

It is important that we look at all the detail that is relevant in this area. For example, in the programme for government that I announced last Wednesday, we set out our investment programme for a just transition fund in the north-east and in Moray, and we set out our plans to significantly enhance the Scotland’s capacity to generate renewable energy. We have made formidable progress on the decarbonisation of electricity since this Government came to power and achieved significant improvements in that process. The programme for government includes material about the restoration of 10,000 hectares of degraded peatland and the creation of 10,000 hectares of woodlands. A variety of other measures in the programme for government also support our work on climate change. I want to be crystal clear to Mr Harvie that the Government is absolutely committed to the journey that we have to take on climate. That commitment has underpinned our activities since we came to office in 2007, and it will underpin our activities in the years to come. The transition has to be made, and it has to made fairly for all communities involved. That is the approach that the Scottish Government will take.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

It is important that we look at all the detail that is relevant in this area. For example, in the programme for government that I announced last Wednesday, we set out our investment programme for a just transition fund in the north-east and in Moray, and we set out our plans to significantly enhance the Scotland’s capacity to generate renewable energy. We have made formidable progress on the decarbonisation of electricity since this Government came to power and achieved significant improvements in that process. The programme for government includes material about the restoration of 10,000 hectares of degraded peatland and the creation of 10,000 hectares of woodlands. A variety of other measures in the programme for government also support our work on climate change. I want to be crystal clear to Mr Harvie that the Government is absolutely committed to the journey that we have to take on climate. That commitment has underpinned our activities since we came to office in 2007, and it will underpin our activities in the years to come. The transition has to be made, and it has to made fairly for all communities involved. That is the approach that the Scottish Government will take.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.44

To ask the First Minister how the Scottish Government plans to improve the planning and consenting regime for renewable energy generation can support the journey to net zero. (S6F-03346)

4. Bob Doris

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13977

First Minister’s Question Time

To ask the First Minister how the Scottish Government plans to improve the planning and consenting regime for renewable energy generation can support the journey to net zero. (S6F-03346)

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.45

Robust and timely planning and consenting of renewable energy projects and infrastructure are key to growing our economy and delivering on our net zero commitments. The steps that we take in relation to providing clarity and confidence to support renewables development and investment are critical to enabling Scotland’s transition to net zero. That is why I set out in the programme for government last week a set of actions to deliver the improvements that we need to see in the current regime. Those include establishing Scotland’s first ever planning hub to build capacity and skills in planning teams, with an initial focus on hydrogen applications; making consenting faster and more consistent for proposals for projects over 50MW; introducing new guidance for transmission developments; and updating our marine planning framework.

The First Minister (John Swinney)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

Robust and timely planning and consenting of renewable energy projects and infrastructure are key to growing our economy and delivering on our net zero commitments. The steps that we take in relation to providing clarity and confidence to support renewables development and investment are critical to enabling Scotland’s transition to net zero. That is why I set out in the programme for government last week a set of actions to deliver the improvements that we need to see in the current regime. Those include establishing Scotland’s first ever planning hub to build capacity and skills in planning teams, with an initial focus on hydrogen applications; making consenting faster and more consistent for proposals for projects over 50MW; introducing new guidance for transmission developments; and updating our marine planning framework.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.46

The green industrial strategy will be key in the context of Scotland’s drive to net zero by 2045 and promoting a just transition. How will the actions that are set out in that strategy help Scotland to secure growth and investment? Net zero also goes beyond renewable energy. What details can the First Minister give about what is contained in the strategy that will support the decarbonisation of the built environment and the construction sector, given that they generate 40 per cent of emissions?

Bob Doris

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13977

First Minister’s Question Time

The green industrial strategy will be key in the context of Scotland’s drive to net zero by 2045 and promoting a just transition. How will the actions that are set out in that strategy help Scotland to secure growth and investment? Net zero also goes beyond renewable energy. What details can the First Minister give about what is contained in the strategy that will support the decarbonisation of the built environment and the construction sector, given that they generate 40 per cent of emissions?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.47

Mr Doris makes a number of important points on the green industrial strategy and the steps that we have to take. As I outlined in my answer to Patrick Harvie, there are five key opportunity areas in which we need to take further action on the transition in relation to investment, innovation and entrepreneurship in a number of sectors: wind, carbon capture and storage, professional financial services, hydrogen and clean industries. We already have formidable leadership in that area, but Mr Doris is right to raise the construction sector and the need for it to reduce its emissions. We are working on decarbonisation in collaboration with the construction sector, through the Construction Leadership Forum and its codes, which set out agreed actions on decarbonisation.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

Mr Doris makes a number of important points on the green industrial strategy and the steps that we have to take. As I outlined in my answer to Patrick Harvie, there are five key opportunity areas in which we need to take further action on the transition in relation to investment, innovation and entrepreneurship in a number of sectors: wind, carbon capture and storage, professional financial services, hydrogen and clean industries. We already have formidable leadership in that area, but Mr Doris is right to raise the construction sector and the need for it to reduce its emissions. We are working on decarbonisation in collaboration with the construction sector, through the Construction Leadership Forum and its codes, which set out agreed actions on decarbonisation.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.48

I am keen to allow as many members as possible to ask supplementary questions, if we can keep those concise.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

First Minister’s Question Time

I am keen to allow as many members as possible to ask supplementary questions, if we can keep those concise.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.49

The north-east is experiencing a dramatic increase in new transmission infrastructure to serve offshore wind. The affected communities deserve proper consultation, but that has been far from what has happened. For residents who bear the brunt of the new infrastructure, it feels like an unfair and unjust transition. As the Scottish Government looks to improve the planning and consenting regime for renewables—which the First Minister described as “making consenting faster”—is the First Minister willing to meet community representatives and campaigners to listen to their concerns and ensure that they are not left behind?

Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26018

First Minister’s Question Time

The north-east is experiencing a dramatic increase in new transmission infrastructure to serve offshore wind. The affected communities deserve proper consultation, but that has been far from what has happened. For residents who bear the brunt of the new infrastructure, it feels like an unfair and unjust transition. As the Scottish Government looks to improve the planning and consenting regime for renewables—which the First Minister described as “making consenting faster”—is the First Minister willing to meet community representatives and campaigners to listen to their concerns and ensure that they are not left behind?

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.50

It is important that there is high-quality community engagement on all developments of any nature. If those who are taking forward developments engage in good dialogue and engagement with individual communities, that helps to make the consenting and planning process more efficient. I am familiar with the issues that Tess White raises, and I am sure that ministers would be happy to meet campaigners. Of course, ministers have to be careful about engaging on particular developments because of the need to observe the ministerial code in taking decisions on such questions.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

It is important that there is high-quality community engagement on all developments of any nature. If those who are taking forward developments engage in good dialogue and engagement with individual communities, that helps to make the consenting and planning process more efficient. I am familiar with the issues that Tess White raises, and I am sure that ministers would be happy to meet campaigners. Of course, ministers have to be careful about engaging on particular developments because of the need to observe the ministerial code in taking decisions on such questions.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.51

I welcome the fact that the Government seeks to make consenting faster, because the First Minister is aware that delays have affected such things as the Berwick Bank offshore wind project. In his role as First Minister, will he facilitate a meeting on the Eskdalemuir seismic array in Dumfries and Galloway, which is causing problems for Community Windpower’s development there?

Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25651

First Minister’s Question Time

I welcome the fact that the Government seeks to make consenting faster, because the First Minister is aware that delays have affected such things as the Berwick Bank offshore wind project. In his role as First Minister, will he facilitate a meeting on the Eskdalemuir seismic array in Dumfries and Galloway, which is causing problems for Community Windpower’s development there?

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.52

On individual applications, I generally take the view that I will not say anything in Parliament, because that keeps me on the right side of the ministerial code. I am not sure of the status of the application that Mr Whitfield has raised, but I will take it away and consider whether it is appropriate for ministers to engage. I do not know the stage of that application, and it would be careless of me to say otherwise.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

On individual applications, I generally take the view that I will not say anything in Parliament, because that keeps me on the right side of the ministerial code. I am not sure of the status of the application that Mr Whitfield has raised, but I will take it away and consider whether it is appropriate for ministers to engage. I do not know the stage of that application, and it would be careless of me to say otherwise.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.53

Shetland is the windiest part of the country so, for obvious reasons, it attracts both onshore and offshore wind developments. Islanders are aware of the contributions that such projects make to reaching net zero, but there is a view that onshore developments should not be built near existing properties and communities. Does the First Minister recognise the concerns about the proximity of wind turbines to homes and the impact of turbine noise and shadow flicker? What can the Scottish Government do in terms of planning and consent to ensure a specified minimum distance between properties and future onshore wind developments?

Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25775

First Minister’s Question Time

Shetland is the windiest part of the country so, for obvious reasons, it attracts both onshore and offshore wind developments. Islanders are aware of the contributions that such projects make to reaching net zero, but there is a view that onshore developments should not be built near existing properties and communities. Does the First Minister recognise the concerns about the proximity of wind turbines to homes and the impact of turbine noise and shadow flicker? What can the Scottish Government do in terms of planning and consent to ensure a specified minimum distance between properties and future onshore wind developments?

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.54

I understand the significance of the issues that Beatrice Wishart has put to me. My view is that the issues that she raises should be properly and fully considered in any planning process. I am happy to consider whether enhancements to the process need to be undertaken to provide the reassurance that she seeks. From some of the dialogue that I have had with representatives of the community in Shetland, I am also conscious of some of the concerns that are raised about developments and about the relationship between power generation in the Shetland Islands and the cost of energy for local residents, which I recognise as a very significant issue. I am happy to have further dialogue with Beatrice Wishart on that question.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

I understand the significance of the issues that Beatrice Wishart has put to me. My view is that the issues that she raises should be properly and fully considered in any planning process. I am happy to consider whether enhancements to the process need to be undertaken to provide the reassurance that she seeks. From some of the dialogue that I have had with representatives of the community in Shetland, I am also conscious of some of the concerns that are raised about developments and about the relationship between power generation in the Shetland Islands and the cost of energy for local residents, which I recognise as a very significant issue. I am happy to have further dialogue with Beatrice Wishart on that question.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.56

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to recent reports regarding Police Scotland’s policy on gender self-identification for individuals charged with or convicted of serious sexual assaults. (S6F-03340)

5. Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25510

First Minister’s Question Time

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to recent reports regarding Police Scotland’s policy on gender self-identification for individuals charged with or convicted of serious sexual assaults. (S6F-03340)

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The Scottish Government is clear that violence against women and girls is abhorrent. Through our equally safe strategy, we aim to prevent and tackle such violence and abuse and to address the underlying attitudes and behaviours that perpetuate the violence that too many experience. It is only through fundamental societal change that women can be protected. The Parliament is well aware that the Scottish Government does not determine or interfere with operational matters of Police Scotland, which is accountable to the Scottish Police Authority and not to ministers.

The First Minister (John Swinney)

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First Minister’s Question Time

The Scottish Government is clear that violence against women and girls is abhorrent. Through our equally safe strategy, we aim to prevent and tackle such violence and abuse and to address the underlying attitudes and behaviours that perpetuate the violence that too many experience. It is only through fundamental societal change that women can be protected. The Parliament is well aware that the Scottish Government does not determine or interfere with operational matters of Police Scotland, which is accountable to the Scottish Police Authority and not to ministers.

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In a letter to a Holyrood committee, Police Scotland said that it would allow a serious sex offender to self-declare their gender. That opens the door to a grotesque situation in which a male rapist can demand to be called a woman and further traumatise his victim. Echoing the language of the Scottish National Party, Police Scotland said that that was “consistent” with its values and promotes “a strong sense of belonging.” That is an insult to the victims of rape and serious assault. The only strong sense that that should inspire is disgust. Does the First Minister agree with me and women across Scotland that male rapists should not get their own way, or is he content to let another Isla Bryson situation happen?

Rachael Hamilton

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First Minister’s Question Time

In a letter to a Holyrood committee, Police Scotland said that it would allow a serious sex offender to self-declare their gender. That opens the door to a grotesque situation in which a male rapist can demand to be called a woman and further traumatise his victim. Echoing the language of the Scottish National Party, Police Scotland said that that was “consistent” with its values and promotes “a strong sense of belonging.” That is an insult to the victims of rape and serious assault. The only strong sense that that should inspire is disgust. Does the First Minister agree with me and women across Scotland that male rapists should not get their own way, or is he content to let another Isla Bryson situation happen?

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Let me be absolutely crystal clear with Parliament. I have never in my life believed, nor will I ever believe, that a male rapist should, in the words of Rachael Hamilton, get his way. I will not be associated with that language. Our law and legal framework make that abundantly clear. In relation to the specific question about the guidance from Police Scotland, those are operational matters for Police Scotland. There would be outrage if I were to interfere in the actions and decision making of Police Scotland. The law is clear that I cannot do that. I am sure that Police Scotland will have heard the exchanges in Parliament today and will consider the issues, if there are any that it wishes to address.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

Let me be absolutely crystal clear with Parliament. I have never in my life believed, nor will I ever believe, that a male rapist should, in the words of Rachael Hamilton, get his way. I will not be associated with that language. Our law and legal framework make that abundantly clear. In relation to the specific question about the guidance from Police Scotland, those are operational matters for Police Scotland. There would be outrage if I were to interfere in the actions and decision making of Police Scotland. The law is clear that I cannot do that. I am sure that Police Scotland will have heard the exchanges in Parliament today and will consider the issues, if there are any that it wishes to address.

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Behind the recording of crime statistics are real victims, such as the women who had to sit through court proceedings last year and hear the rapist referred to as a woman. I do not think that the First Minister can ignore responsibility. As Rachael Hamilton said, Police Scotland has said that that is consistent with its values, but the Government needs to be clear whether it is consistent with the Government’s values. If a message is to go from the First Minister today, does it not make a mockery of the Government’s violence against women strategy if violent male offenders can present as women and that could be accepted by the police? It is that critical.

Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab)

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First Minister’s Question Time

Behind the recording of crime statistics are real victims, such as the women who had to sit through court proceedings last year and hear the rapist referred to as a woman. I do not think that the First Minister can ignore responsibility. As Rachael Hamilton said, Police Scotland has said that that is consistent with its values, but the Government needs to be clear whether it is consistent with the Government’s values. If a message is to go from the First Minister today, does it not make a mockery of the Government’s violence against women strategy if violent male offenders can present as women and that could be accepted by the police? It is that critical.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.61

The Government’s strategy in relation to the tackling of violence against women is absolutely crystal clear that there is no place for violence against women in our society. The perpetrators of that violence must be confronted with and held to account for their behaviour. That is the foundation of our legal system. Pauline McNeill is an experienced commentator and parliamentarian on issues in relation to justice policy. She knows that I cannot interfere in the operational business of Police Scotland. The law prevents me from doing so. However, the issues have been aired in Parliament today, and Police Scotland will have the opportunity to consider them.

The First Minister

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First Minister’s Question Time

The Government’s strategy in relation to the tackling of violence against women is absolutely crystal clear that there is no place for violence against women in our society. The perpetrators of that violence must be confronted with and held to account for their behaviour. That is the foundation of our legal system. Pauline McNeill is an experienced commentator and parliamentarian on issues in relation to justice policy. She knows that I cannot interfere in the operational business of Police Scotland. The law prevents me from doing so. However, the issues have been aired in Parliament today, and Police Scotland will have the opportunity to consider them.

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Just to further underline the issue that we are discussing, stories have been running in the media this year discussing the increase in “women” committing sex crimes, when the reality is that those crimes are committed by men and are being recorded as women’s crimes. That is offensive to women, and it is grossly disrespectful to the victims of those crimes. Why are Scottish institutions still acting as if self-identification is the law when it is not? Institutions, however, have legal obligations, through the public sector equality duty, to record sex accurately. Will the First Minister show leadership and address this horrible situation urgently?

Ash Regan (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba)

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First Minister’s Question Time

Just to further underline the issue that we are discussing, stories have been running in the media this year discussing the increase in “women” committing sex crimes, when the reality is that those crimes are committed by men and are being recorded as women’s crimes. That is offensive to women, and it is grossly disrespectful to the victims of those crimes. Why are Scottish institutions still acting as if self-identification is the law when it is not? Institutions, however, have legal obligations, through the public sector equality duty, to record sex accurately. Will the First Minister show leadership and address this horrible situation urgently?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.63

In the most recent year for which published data is available—2021-22—in all convictions of rape or attempted rape, the crimes were perpetrated by males. That is a statement of fact in relation to the most recent data that is available. I acknowledge the concerns that are being expressed in the Parliament today, but I return to the fundamental point that the recording of information on those who commit crime is an operational matter for Police Scotland. It must be accountable for the decisions that it takes, and it is not for the First Minister to interfere or specify in operational matters of Police Scotland.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

First Minister’s Question Time

In the most recent year for which published data is available—2021-22—in all convictions of rape or attempted rape, the crimes were perpetrated by males. That is a statement of fact in relation to the most recent data that is available. I acknowledge the concerns that are being expressed in the Parliament today, but I return to the fundamental point that the recording of information on those who commit crime is an operational matter for Police Scotland. It must be accountable for the decisions that it takes, and it is not for the First Minister to interfere or specify in operational matters of Police Scotland.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.65

To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking in response to the reported rise in hospice care costs, including to ensure that employees in that sector have pay parity with NHS staff. (S6F-03333)

6. Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab)

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First Minister’s Question Time

To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking in response to the reported rise in hospice care costs, including to ensure that employees in that sector have pay parity with NHS staff. (S6F-03333)

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Independent hospices are highly valued and provide vital support to people and their families, as well as supporting other local health and social care services and teams delivering palliative care. I understand the pressures that hospices are currently facing, and the Scottish Government strives to support independent hospices where possible. There has been engagement and dialogue with the hospice sector, and the Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health is meeting Hospice UK and the chair of the Scottish hospice leadership group next week to discuss support options in more detail.

The First Minister (John Swinney)

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First Minister’s Question Time

Independent hospices are highly valued and provide vital support to people and their families, as well as supporting other local health and social care services and teams delivering palliative care. I understand the pressures that hospices are currently facing, and the Scottish Government strives to support independent hospices where possible. There has been engagement and dialogue with the hospice sector, and the Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health is meeting Hospice UK and the chair of the Scottish hospice leadership group next week to discuss support options in more detail.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.67

Given that hospice care is so valued, does the First Minister recognise that urgent action is needed? The sector is under serious financial constraints, with threats of closures. The Government must ensure that the hospice workforce does not conclude that it is undervalued and leave the sector. Hospices simply cannot take that impact. What action will the First Minister take today—right now—to reassure hospices and the workforce?

Carol Mochan

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First Minister’s Question Time

Given that hospice care is so valued, does the First Minister recognise that urgent action is needed? The sector is under serious financial constraints, with threats of closures. The Government must ensure that the hospice workforce does not conclude that it is undervalued and leave the sector. Hospices simply cannot take that impact. What action will the First Minister take today—right now—to reassure hospices and the workforce?

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Let me make it clear that I deeply value, and the Government deeply values, the work of the hospice sector. I understand the financial challenges that are faced because of the wider pay deals that are being put in place or consulted on in relation to the agenda for change, and that creates difficulties for the hospice sector. There is ministerial engagement to address those questions, and that will be taken forward as a consequence of the points that have been raised by Carol Mochan.

The First Minister

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First Minister’s Question Time

Let me make it clear that I deeply value, and the Government deeply values, the work of the hospice sector. I understand the financial challenges that are faced because of the wider pay deals that are being put in place or consulted on in relation to the agenda for change, and that creates difficulties for the hospice sector. There is ministerial engagement to address those questions, and that will be taken forward as a consequence of the points that have been raised by Carol Mochan.

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In 2012, ministers put in place a chief executive letter for hospices across Scotland. That resulted in a welcome situation, with the Government and the hospices mutually agreeing a funding calculation of 50 per cent of agreed costs. Since the integration of health and social care, the letter is now not taken into account and that figure has collapsed to around 25 to 28 per cent of costs for hospices across Scotland. That needs to change. What future models of funding will the Scottish Government look at to ensure that we have a built-in mechanism to take into account the increased pay and additional costs that the whole hospice sector faces?

Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con)

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First Minister’s Question Time

In 2012, ministers put in place a chief executive letter for hospices across Scotland. That resulted in a welcome situation, with the Government and the hospices mutually agreeing a funding calculation of 50 per cent of agreed costs. Since the integration of health and social care, the letter is now not taken into account and that figure has collapsed to around 25 to 28 per cent of costs for hospices across Scotland. That needs to change. What future models of funding will the Scottish Government look at to ensure that we have a built-in mechanism to take into account the increased pay and additional costs that the whole hospice sector faces?

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Miles Briggs is correct that the arrangements that were previously in place were superseded by the introduction of the Public Bodies (Joint Working) (Scotland) Act 2014. As a consequence of the act, it became the responsibility of integration joint boards to plan and resource adult palliative care services, including hospice services, for their area, based on local need. That is now the route by which the funding arrangements are resolved. We will continue to engage on these questions to determine what is the best approach to take to meet local needs, which will vary in different parts of the country. The minister’s meeting next week will provide us with the opportunity to reflect further on the questions.

The First Minister

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First Minister’s Question Time

Miles Briggs is correct that the arrangements that were previously in place were superseded by the introduction of the Public Bodies (Joint Working) (Scotland) Act 2014. As a consequence of the act, it became the responsibility of integration joint boards to plan and resource adult palliative care services, including hospice services, for their area, based on local need. That is now the route by which the funding arrangements are resolved. We will continue to engage on these questions to determine what is the best approach to take to meet local needs, which will vary in different parts of the country. The minister’s meeting next week will provide us with the opportunity to reflect further on the questions.

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My thoughts are first and foremost with the workers at the refinery in Grangemouth, for whom today’s announcement will be a shock, if not a surprise. I am also mindful of the community, for whom a just transition will feel too far away. As a constituency MSP, I will do everything in my power to sustain the life of the refinery and to ensure that it and the important chemical cluster around it can be supported. I note that the £100 million that has been quoted by the United Kingdom Government and the Labour Party includes £80 million that was already agreed as part of the growth deal for the wider Falkirk district, which included £50 million from the Scottish Government, and that those funds will not be solely focused on Grangemouth. However, I can today make members aware that I have been working with a third party that hopes to purchase the refinery in its entirety. The matter is, of course, commercially sensitive and confidential, but will the First Minister meet me so that I can share what information I can, with the permission of the potential buyer?

Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP)

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First Minister’s Question Time

My thoughts are first and foremost with the workers at the refinery in Grangemouth, for whom today’s announcement will be a shock, if not a surprise. I am also mindful of the community, for whom a just transition will feel too far away. As a constituency MSP, I will do everything in my power to sustain the life of the refinery and to ensure that it and the important chemical cluster around it can be supported. I note that the £100 million that has been quoted by the United Kingdom Government and the Labour Party includes £80 million that was already agreed as part of the growth deal for the wider Falkirk district, which included £50 million from the Scottish Government, and that those funds will not be solely focused on Grangemouth. However, I can today make members aware that I have been working with a third party that hopes to purchase the refinery in its entirety. The matter is, of course, commercially sensitive and confidential, but will the First Minister meet me so that I can share what information I can, with the permission of the potential buyer?

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I am happy to do so. This is an unnerving time for the workforce and it is important that we all act to ensure that there are good and positive opportunities for members of staff as they face such an anxious time. I am happy to explore all possibilities, but I reiterate what I have already put on the record today, which is that the Scottish Government stands to support the workforce at Grangemouth to find the best way forward in difficult circumstances.

The First Minister (John Swinney)

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First Minister’s Question Time

I am happy to do so. This is an unnerving time for the workforce and it is important that we all act to ensure that there are good and positive opportunities for members of staff as they face such an anxious time. I am happy to explore all possibilities, but I reiterate what I have already put on the record today, which is that the Scottish Government stands to support the workforce at Grangemouth to find the best way forward in difficult circumstances.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.75

The First Minister will be aware that the Commonwealth games will no longer be taking place in Australia in 2026. However, Australia has offered £100 million to underwrite the cost of the games if they come to Scotland and a further £50 million is available from ticket sales and sponsorship. There is also a guarantee from the Commonwealth games council that the games will be fully funded without the need for any Scottish Government intervention. Does the First Minister agree that bringing the games back to Scotland would be fantastic in promoting Scotland to the world and highlighting sporting excellence to the Scottish public?

Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con)

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First Minister’s Question Time

The First Minister will be aware that the Commonwealth games will no longer be taking place in Australia in 2026. However, Australia has offered £100 million to underwrite the cost of the games if they come to Scotland and a further £50 million is available from ticket sales and sponsorship. There is also a guarantee from the Commonwealth games council that the games will be fully funded without the need for any Scottish Government intervention. Does the First Minister agree that bringing the games back to Scotland would be fantastic in promoting Scotland to the world and highlighting sporting excellence to the Scottish public?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.76

We all have fond memories of the Commonwealth games in 2014, which were a marvellous spectacle, but it is important that everyone who is considering and discussing the issue is aware that the proposal that is being brought forward would not replicate the Commonwealth games of 2014, but would be a significantly reduced proposition in comparison. There are also practical issues about the length of the preparatory time for the games. We had seven years to prepare for 2014, but there is just short of two years to prepare for any games in 2026. There are, of course, significant financial issues and Mr Whittle knows the pressures on the public purse at this time. Discussions are under way with Commonwealth Games Scotland. The Government is engaging in good faith and will continue to do so.

The First Minister (John Swinney)

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First Minister’s Question Time

We all have fond memories of the Commonwealth games in 2014, which were a marvellous spectacle, but it is important that everyone who is considering and discussing the issue is aware that the proposal that is being brought forward would not replicate the Commonwealth games of 2014, but would be a significantly reduced proposition in comparison. There are also practical issues about the length of the preparatory time for the games. We had seven years to prepare for 2014, but there is just short of two years to prepare for any games in 2026. There are, of course, significant financial issues and Mr Whittle knows the pressures on the public purse at this time. Discussions are under way with Commonwealth Games Scotland. The Government is engaging in good faith and will continue to do so.

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The link between population growth and economic growth is of particular importance in the region that I represent. Keir Starmer has said that he wants to work on common ground with the Scottish Government. What indication has the First Minister had from the United Kingdom Government that it will devolve powers to this Parliament so that a rural visa pilot can be taken forward for sectors such as social care and hospitality?

Emma Roddick (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)

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First Minister’s Question Time

The link between population growth and economic growth is of particular importance in the region that I represent. Keir Starmer has said that he wants to work on common ground with the Scottish Government. What indication has the First Minister had from the United Kingdom Government that it will devolve powers to this Parliament so that a rural visa pilot can be taken forward for sectors such as social care and hospitality?

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I have put that proposition to ministers in the United Kingdom Government and discussed it specifically with the Deputy Prime Minister when she visited me in the summer. As Emma Roddick will know from her constituency experience, there are acute shortages of workers in a number of sectors and a rural visa pilot would help us to address some of the challenges that exist in the Highlands and Islands, and which she fairly puts to me. I assure Emma Roddick that the Scottish Government is pressing the UK Government to act on those issues because, if it did, that would contribute towards stimulating further economic growth in Scotland, which I think we would all welcome.

The First Minister (John Swinney)

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First Minister’s Question Time

I have put that proposition to ministers in the United Kingdom Government and discussed it specifically with the Deputy Prime Minister when she visited me in the summer. As Emma Roddick will know from her constituency experience, there are acute shortages of workers in a number of sectors and a rural visa pilot would help us to address some of the challenges that exist in the Highlands and Islands, and which she fairly puts to me. I assure Emma Roddick that the Scottish Government is pressing the UK Government to act on those issues because, if it did, that would contribute towards stimulating further economic growth in Scotland, which I think we would all welcome.

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That concludes First Minister’s question time. There will be a short suspension to allow those leaving the public gallery to do so before the next debate begins.

The Presiding Officer

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First Minister’s Question Time

That concludes First Minister’s question time. There will be a short suspension to allow those leaving the public gallery to do so before the next debate begins.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.1.81

Meeting suspended.

First Minister’s Question Time

Meeting suspended.

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On resuming—

First Minister’s Question Time

On resuming—

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.2.1

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-13909, in the name of Bill Kidd, on the late Rev John Ainslie. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. Motion debated, That the Parliament recognises the enormous contribution to the debate on nuclear weapons that was made by the late Reverend John Ainslie in the Glasgow Anniesland constituency, the Parliament and throughout Scotland; celebrates the publication, in an accessible and searchable digital form, of the archive of all of his reports by the Nuclear Information Service, and welcomes the return of the physical papers for safekeeping by the National Library of Scotland.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)

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The Late Rev John Ainslie

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-13909, in the name of Bill Kidd, on the late Rev John Ainslie. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. Motion debated, That the Parliament recognises the enormous contribution to the debate on nuclear weapons that was made by the late Reverend John Ainslie in the Glasgow Anniesland constituency, the Parliament and throughout Scotland; celebrates the publication, in an accessible and searchable digital form, of the archive of all of his reports by the Nuclear Information Service, and welcomes the return of the physical papers for safekeeping by the National Library of Scotland.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.2.2

Today, we are here to recognise the remarkable contributions of the late Rev John Ainslie to the debate on nuclear weapons. John was not just a leading figure in Scotland’s anti-nuclear movement; he was someone whose life’s work and deep commitment to peace profoundly shaped the discourse on disarmament here and abroad. I hope that his legacy will be honoured not only in words but in actions as we go forward. Although today’s debate pays tribute to John’s invaluable work, it also provides an opportunity to renew our commitment to nuclear disarmament and to a nuclear-free Scotland. I welcome to the public gallery representatives of the Nuclear Information Service and the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Their efforts are vital, given the continued existence and proliferation of nuclear weapons here in Scotland and around the world. The Nuclear Information Service plays an essential role in the on-going effort towards nuclear disarmament, as it provides rigorous and reliable information on the United Kingdom’s nuclear weapons programme. It is through such efforts that we can engage in informed debates and challenge the dangerous and costly status quo of nuclear armament. After the debate, there will be a meeting of the cross-party group on nuclear disarmament and, later, an event at the National Library of Scotland to celebrate the return of the John Ainslie archives. That event will feature a panel discussion with Scottish CND, the Nuclear Information Service and journalist Rob Edwards, and it will further highlight the importance of the Rev John Ainslie’s work. John’s life was a journey defined by courage and conviction. Born in Aberdeenshire, he joined the Army in 1971 and studied international relations, becoming a junior officer. However, by 1980, his conscience led him to resign his commission, as a conscientious objector, and he became a passionate advocate for nuclear disarmament. On returning to Scotland, he pursued a degree in divinity and joined the Church of Scotland as a youth worker, while also emerging as a prominent figure in the disarmament movement. In 1992, as the co-ordinator of Scottish CND, John made headlines by protesting against the arrival on the Clyde of the first submarine armed with Trident nuclear missiles. He did so with action, not just words, by paddling a canoe to confront the submarine—an act of bravery that led to his arrest by Ministry of Defence police. That moment symbolised his unwavering commitment to a world free from nuclear weapons. John combined rigorous academic inquiry with grass-roots activism, which ensured that his contributions had both intellectual and practical impacts. He famously coined the phrase “Bairns not bombs”, which is a powerful slogan that captures his vision of investing in our children and communities rather than in weapons of mass destruction. That simple yet profound message continues to resonate today as we advocate for a nuclear-free future. The reports and research that the Rev John Ainslie produced, now digitised by the Nuclear Information Service, remain vital in shaping international discourse on nuclear weapons. Those documents are living tools that continue to inform global efforts towards nuclear disarmament, including the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. The return of those original documents to Scotland’s National Library is more than symbolic; it is a reaffirmation of Scotland’s role in the global peace movement. Nuclear disarmament is not just an idealistic goal; it is a practical necessity. Nuclear weapons pose an existential threat to humanity. Their use, whether by design, accident or miscalculation, would have catastrophic consequences, and it is our moral duty to work relentlessly to eliminate those weapons from our world. The Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons, which came into force in 2021, represents a historic step forward. Supported by a growing number of nations, the treaty explicitly bans the development, testing, production and possession of nuclear weapons. Scotland, through its people and its leaders, has consistently supported the treaty and the broader movement for disarmament, and John’s work laid much of the groundwork for that support. However, significant challenges remain. Nuclear-armed states, including the UK, continue to resist such efforts, and they often cite deterrence as a justification. However, the doctrine of deterrence is fundamentally flawed. It perpetuates a cycle of fear and insecurity and increases the risk of nuclear conflict. For as long as the UK maintains its nuclear arsenal on Scottish soil, we find ourselves complicit in that dangerous status quo. Yet Scotland has the potential to be a beacon of hope and a nation that leads by example, by advocating for disarmament and striving for a future where bairns not bombs is a reality. As we honour the life and legacy of the late John Ainslie, let us commit ourselves to continuing his work. Let us strive for a Scotland and a world where peace, justice and human dignity are not overshadowed by the threat of nuclear weapons. John’s example inspires us to challenge the status quo and to work tirelessly for a safer and fairer future. Let us use this moment to act, to renew our dedication to nuclear disarmament and to build a future where our children inherit a world free from the threat of nuclear annihilation.

Bill Kidd (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)

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The Late Rev John Ainslie

Today, we are here to recognise the remarkable contributions of the late Rev John Ainslie to the debate on nuclear weapons. John was not just a leading figure in Scotland’s anti-nuclear movement; he was someone whose life’s work and deep commitment to peace profoundly shaped the discourse on disarmament here and abroad. I hope that his legacy will be honoured not only in words but in actions as we go forward. Although today’s debate pays tribute to John’s invaluable work, it also provides an opportunity to renew our commitment to nuclear disarmament and to a nuclear-free Scotland. I welcome to the public gallery representatives of the Nuclear Information Service and the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Their efforts are vital, given the continued existence and proliferation of nuclear weapons here in Scotland and around the world. The Nuclear Information Service plays an essential role in the on-going effort towards nuclear disarmament, as it provides rigorous and reliable information on the United Kingdom’s nuclear weapons programme. It is through such efforts that we can engage in informed debates and challenge the dangerous and costly status quo of nuclear armament. After the debate, there will be a meeting of the cross-party group on nuclear disarmament and, later, an event at the National Library of Scotland to celebrate the return of the John Ainslie archives. That event will feature a panel discussion with Scottish CND, the Nuclear Information Service and journalist Rob Edwards, and it will further highlight the importance of the Rev John Ainslie’s work. John’s life was a journey defined by courage and conviction. Born in Aberdeenshire, he joined the Army in 1971 and studied international relations, becoming a junior officer. However, by 1980, his conscience led him to resign his commission, as a conscientious objector, and he became a passionate advocate for nuclear disarmament. On returning to Scotland, he pursued a degree in divinity and joined the Church of Scotland as a youth worker, while also emerging as a prominent figure in the disarmament movement. In 1992, as the co-ordinator of Scottish CND, John made headlines by protesting against the arrival on the Clyde of the first submarine armed with Trident nuclear missiles. He did so with action, not just words, by paddling a canoe to confront the submarine—an act of bravery that led to his arrest by Ministry of Defence police. That moment symbolised his unwavering commitment to a world free from nuclear weapons. John combined rigorous academic inquiry with grass-roots activism, which ensured that his contributions had both intellectual and practical impacts. He famously coined the phrase “Bairns not bombs”, which is a powerful slogan that captures his vision of investing in our children and communities rather than in weapons of mass destruction. That simple yet profound message continues to resonate today as we advocate for a nuclear-free future. The reports and research that the Rev John Ainslie produced, now digitised by the Nuclear Information Service, remain vital in shaping international discourse on nuclear weapons. Those documents are living tools that continue to inform global efforts towards nuclear disarmament, including the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. The return of those original documents to Scotland’s National Library is more than symbolic; it is a reaffirmation of Scotland’s role in the global peace movement. Nuclear disarmament is not just an idealistic goal; it is a practical necessity. Nuclear weapons pose an existential threat to humanity. Their use, whether by design, accident or miscalculation, would have catastrophic consequences, and it is our moral duty to work relentlessly to eliminate those weapons from our world. The Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons, which came into force in 2021, represents a historic step forward. Supported by a growing number of nations, the treaty explicitly bans the development, testing, production and possession of nuclear weapons. Scotland, through its people and its leaders, has consistently supported the treaty and the broader movement for disarmament, and John’s work laid much of the groundwork for that support. However, significant challenges remain. Nuclear-armed states, including the UK, continue to resist such efforts, and they often cite deterrence as a justification. However, the doctrine of deterrence is fundamentally flawed. It perpetuates a cycle of fear and insecurity and increases the risk of nuclear conflict. For as long as the UK maintains its nuclear arsenal on Scottish soil, we find ourselves complicit in that dangerous status quo. Yet Scotland has the potential to be a beacon of hope and a nation that leads by example, by advocating for disarmament and striving for a future where bairns not bombs is a reality. As we honour the life and legacy of the late John Ainslie, let us commit ourselves to continuing his work. Let us strive for a Scotland and a world where peace, justice and human dignity are not overshadowed by the threat of nuclear weapons. John’s example inspires us to challenge the status quo and to work tirelessly for a safer and fairer future. Let us use this moment to act, to renew our dedication to nuclear disarmament and to build a future where our children inherit a world free from the threat of nuclear annihilation.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.2.3

I am pleased to speak in this important debate, which I thank my colleague Bill Kidd for bringing to the chamber. His commitment to nuclear disarmament is well documented. He is the co-president of the global organisation Parliamentarians for Nuclear Non-proliferation and Disarmament, and I applaud him for his unstinting work to get rid of the abomination of nuclear weapons from Scotland’s shores and from the world. I also applaud the subject of today’s debate, the Rev John Ainslie. As we have heard, he was a son of the manse in Aberdeenshire who joined the Army in 1971, studied international relations at Keele University in Staffordshire and became a junior officer. By 1980, he had fallen out with the Army and resigned his commission, as a conscientious objector, and he became an active campaigner. After paying back his university fees to the Army, he undertook a divinity degree and entered the ministry of the Church of Scotland as a youth worker. He was one of Scotland’s foremost disarmament campaigners, along with the late Canon Kenyon Wright. In 1992, when the first submarine armed with Trident nuclear missiles arrived in the Clyde, John—by then the co-ordinator of Scottish CND—was in a canoe buzzing the submarine when he was arrested by the MOD police. As we have heard, John did not just pay lip service to disarmament; he acted with bravery, and his arrest was a watershed moment in highlighting the absurdity of these weapons of mass destruction. The Scottish National Party has a long-standing commitment to ridding our shores and the world of nuclear weapons. Until today’s debate, I did not realise that the oft-used phrase “Bairns not bombs” was coined by John Ainslie. For me, that slogan says it all. We want our children to grow up without the threat of nuclear weapons. Scotland does not want them; they have no place here. I have been a lifelong supporter of nuclear disarmament, having visited Faslane and Greenham Common back in the day. In fact, I think that I still have the “Protest and survive” badges and other memorabilia from then, which I am keeping to pass on to my grandchildren. The money that is spent on these useless weapons is staggering. We could use that money in so many ways to build a fairer, greener Scotland. For me, their presence here is symbolic of having paid no heed to what the majority of Scots want and believe. Nuclear weapons are morally reprehensible. As Bill Kidd said, the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons, which came into force in 2021, represents a historic step forward, along with the research produced by John Ainslie, which is now digitised by the Nuclear Information Service. I again thank Bill Kidd for securing the debate. I thank all peace-loving citizens and organisations for their work to end the abomination of nuclear weapons. The most fitting tribute to John Ainslie would be to rid the beautiful shores of Scotland of them—something that I am confident will happen when we are an independent country.

Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25522

The Late Rev John Ainslie

I am pleased to speak in this important debate, which I thank my colleague Bill Kidd for bringing to the chamber. His commitment to nuclear disarmament is well documented. He is the co-president of the global organisation Parliamentarians for Nuclear Non-proliferation and Disarmament, and I applaud him for his unstinting work to get rid of the abomination of nuclear weapons from Scotland’s shores and from the world. I also applaud the subject of today’s debate, the Rev John Ainslie. As we have heard, he was a son of the manse in Aberdeenshire who joined the Army in 1971, studied international relations at Keele University in Staffordshire and became a junior officer. By 1980, he had fallen out with the Army and resigned his commission, as a conscientious objector, and he became an active campaigner. After paying back his university fees to the Army, he undertook a divinity degree and entered the ministry of the Church of Scotland as a youth worker. He was one of Scotland’s foremost disarmament campaigners, along with the late Canon Kenyon Wright. In 1992, when the first submarine armed with Trident nuclear missiles arrived in the Clyde, John—by then the co-ordinator of Scottish CND—was in a canoe buzzing the submarine when he was arrested by the MOD police. As we have heard, John did not just pay lip service to disarmament; he acted with bravery, and his arrest was a watershed moment in highlighting the absurdity of these weapons of mass destruction. The Scottish National Party has a long-standing commitment to ridding our shores and the world of nuclear weapons. Until today’s debate, I did not realise that the oft-used phrase “Bairns not bombs” was coined by John Ainslie. For me, that slogan says it all. We want our children to grow up without the threat of nuclear weapons. Scotland does not want them; they have no place here. I have been a lifelong supporter of nuclear disarmament, having visited Faslane and Greenham Common back in the day. In fact, I think that I still have the “Protest and survive” badges and other memorabilia from then, which I am keeping to pass on to my grandchildren. The money that is spent on these useless weapons is staggering. We could use that money in so many ways to build a fairer, greener Scotland. For me, their presence here is symbolic of having paid no heed to what the majority of Scots want and believe. Nuclear weapons are morally reprehensible. As Bill Kidd said, the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons, which came into force in 2021, represents a historic step forward, along with the research produced by John Ainslie, which is now digitised by the Nuclear Information Service. I again thank Bill Kidd for securing the debate. I thank all peace-loving citizens and organisations for their work to end the abomination of nuclear weapons. The most fitting tribute to John Ainslie would be to rid the beautiful shores of Scotland of them—something that I am confident will happen when we are an independent country.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.2.4

I, too, congratulate Bill Kidd on bringing this debate to the chamber. He and I have spoken in numerous debates on issues such as this one over the years. I might be a strange choice to speak in this debate, for a number of reasons. I am an MSP with a keen interest in the work of our armed forces; I have the Faslane nuclear base in my parliamentary region, which I have visited multiple times; and I would describe myself as a supporter of our continuous at-sea deterrent. However, I would like to think that the Rev John Ainslie, if he was here, would cherish this debate and all speakers’ participation in it. I have much that is positive to say about his work, even if he and I would perhaps have disagreed eye to eye on some of the substantive issues. The underlying premise of his desire for peace across the world is one that I hope we all share, irrespective of our views. The Rev John Ainslie was co-ordinator of Scottish CND from 1991, when I was just 11, right through until his untimely death in 2016. In doing my research for this debate, I was interested to read that he trained to be an officer in the 1970s and he completed a degree in international relations, specialising in NATO’s nuclear strategy. He went on to serve in our armed forces in Ireland. I am reliably told that he possibly even worked in military intelligence, although I am not sure about the truth of that. Famously, he left as a conscientious objector, and he suffered and paid a price as a result of that. He faced tribunals and was forced to pay back some of his university fees. At the time when Vanguard, which was the first of the Trident submarines, sailed up the Clyde, right in front of my home town of Greenock, he led a flotilla of around 50 small craft, with swimmers and canoeists in the water. The sight of that huge submarine of mass destruction alongside the tiny canoes and the swimmers must have been an iconic vision of that epoch. In his many reports, which were very well received as being evidence based and well argued, he aimed to persuade the public of his convictions. Whether one agreed with his work or not, he provided a significant base of information about Britain’s nuclear capabilities. Indeed, I would go as far as saying that it enriched the debate on Britain’s nuclear deterrent. They are weapons of mass death and destruction. He was right about that. Of course, some would argue that that is their very purpose. His campaign was born in a very different world. Let us look back to 1992, when his first report was published. The cold war was just over, the Berlin wall had just come down and the USSR had just collapsed. There was a feeling that a united Europe was giving way to a more united world. There was optimism at the time that the move towards an anti-nuclear world was gaining momentum and that disarmament would be universal. However, that optimism and that sense of global unity have not lasted or stood the test of time. I believe that we are now in a far more dangerous and perhaps volatile world than we were in in those days. I think that the on-going conflicts in Ukraine and the middle east and the tensions in the Taiwan Strait and elsewhere reinforce the role that Britain plays in global affairs and the support that we give to and receive from our global allies. The nuclear deterrent is undoubtedly part of that. However, what the Rev John Ainslie did was challenge its existence through substance. He scrutinised the standards of the deterrent and challenged the risks associated with it. The many reports, which I do not have time to go into, were fascinating to read, and I look forward to seeing the archive at the National Library of Scotland. I would even argue that the UK’s deterrent, as it is today, is all the safer as a result of much of the work that those who opposed its existence did. That work is clearly on-going, and those in the public gallery today are testament to that. Bill Kidd summed it up nicely. The Rev John Ainslie challenged the status quo. He asked difficult questions of people in power—perhaps questions that no one else was asking at the time—about the price of security, the meaning of deterrence, the legalities around its potential use and the realities of our global capabilities and those of our allies and our opponents. I believe that we are all safer for some of that research and work. He made his arguments not through the prism of ideology, but through research and thought-provoking analysis, and he was never afraid to question the safety or indeed the costs of our nuclear deterrent. One thing that I am sad about is that he is not here to participate in this debate. Nonetheless, the movement, his friends, his family and those who continue to fly the flag for him, including Bill Kidd, who I have much respect for, keep alive his cause and the memory of those bold figures of the early CND who were never afraid to challenge the status quo. We should never be afraid to challenge the status quo, and that is something that we should all cherish in a democracy such as ours.

Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25508

The Late Rev John Ainslie

I, too, congratulate Bill Kidd on bringing this debate to the chamber. He and I have spoken in numerous debates on issues such as this one over the years. I might be a strange choice to speak in this debate, for a number of reasons. I am an MSP with a keen interest in the work of our armed forces; I have the Faslane nuclear base in my parliamentary region, which I have visited multiple times; and I would describe myself as a supporter of our continuous at-sea deterrent. However, I would like to think that the Rev John Ainslie, if he was here, would cherish this debate and all speakers’ participation in it. I have much that is positive to say about his work, even if he and I would perhaps have disagreed eye to eye on some of the substantive issues. The underlying premise of his desire for peace across the world is one that I hope we all share, irrespective of our views. The Rev John Ainslie was co-ordinator of Scottish CND from 1991, when I was just 11, right through until his untimely death in 2016. In doing my research for this debate, I was interested to read that he trained to be an officer in the 1970s and he completed a degree in international relations, specialising in NATO’s nuclear strategy. He went on to serve in our armed forces in Ireland. I am reliably told that he possibly even worked in military intelligence, although I am not sure about the truth of that. Famously, he left as a conscientious objector, and he suffered and paid a price as a result of that. He faced tribunals and was forced to pay back some of his university fees. At the time when Vanguard, which was the first of the Trident submarines, sailed up the Clyde, right in front of my home town of Greenock, he led a flotilla of around 50 small craft, with swimmers and canoeists in the water. The sight of that huge submarine of mass destruction alongside the tiny canoes and the swimmers must have been an iconic vision of that epoch. In his many reports, which were very well received as being evidence based and well argued, he aimed to persuade the public of his convictions. Whether one agreed with his work or not, he provided a significant base of information about Britain’s nuclear capabilities. Indeed, I would go as far as saying that it enriched the debate on Britain’s nuclear deterrent. They are weapons of mass death and destruction. He was right about that. Of course, some would argue that that is their very purpose. His campaign was born in a very different world. Let us look back to 1992, when his first report was published. The cold war was just over, the Berlin wall had just come down and the USSR had just collapsed. There was a feeling that a united Europe was giving way to a more united world. There was optimism at the time that the move towards an anti-nuclear world was gaining momentum and that disarmament would be universal. However, that optimism and that sense of global unity have not lasted or stood the test of time. I believe that we are now in a far more dangerous and perhaps volatile world than we were in in those days. I think that the on-going conflicts in Ukraine and the middle east and the tensions in the Taiwan Strait and elsewhere reinforce the role that Britain plays in global affairs and the support that we give to and receive from our global allies. The nuclear deterrent is undoubtedly part of that. However, what the Rev John Ainslie did was challenge its existence through substance. He scrutinised the standards of the deterrent and challenged the risks associated with it. The many reports, which I do not have time to go into, were fascinating to read, and I look forward to seeing the archive at the National Library of Scotland. I would even argue that the UK’s deterrent, as it is today, is all the safer as a result of much of the work that those who opposed its existence did. That work is clearly on-going, and those in the public gallery today are testament to that. Bill Kidd summed it up nicely. The Rev John Ainslie challenged the status quo. He asked difficult questions of people in power—perhaps questions that no one else was asking at the time—about the price of security, the meaning of deterrence, the legalities around its potential use and the realities of our global capabilities and those of our allies and our opponents. I believe that we are all safer for some of that research and work. He made his arguments not through the prism of ideology, but through research and thought-provoking analysis, and he was never afraid to question the safety or indeed the costs of our nuclear deterrent. One thing that I am sad about is that he is not here to participate in this debate. Nonetheless, the movement, his friends, his family and those who continue to fly the flag for him, including Bill Kidd, who I have much respect for, keep alive his cause and the memory of those bold figures of the early CND who were never afraid to challenge the status quo. We should never be afraid to challenge the status quo, and that is something that we should all cherish in a democracy such as ours.

f2f34686-8f53-4bed-b6bf-9291971194fe

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.2.5

I thank Bill Kidd for leading the debate on a motion that celebrates the life and work of John Ainslie. Last month marked the 30th anniversary of a publication that I do not think is in the archive. It is a pamphlet that John and I co-authored—a coproduction between the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and the Scottish Trades Union Congress: “Trident—Not Safe, Not Economic, Not Wanted” is its title. In it, we exposed the huge hidden costs of Trident and exposed the huge safety risk that it posed to the whole of central Scotland. It is a piece of work, three decades on, that I am proud of, not only because we were on the right side of the biggest moral question of our age—and I still firmly believe that to be true—but precisely because I worked on it with John. We would meet at 15 Barrland Street, on the south side of Glasgow, and at 16 Woodlands Terrace, in the grandeur of the STUC’s offices, with its views redolent of the cityscapes of Oscar Marzaroli. John’s job title at Scottish CND at that time was administrator, but John Ainslie was no bureaucrat. He was an activist, a thinker, a campaigner, a writer, a protester, and a man of the highest principles. Just listen to his simple, but arresting, opening line in that pamphlet: “A Trident submarine is designed to destroy a continent and to kill 200 million people.” In the ensuing years, he became an internationally respected authority on nuclear weapons and nuclear disarmament, and no one knew more about the road convoys of warheads that were travelling through Scotland than John. Acutely aware of the dangers, the risks, the hazards—the unintended consequences—as well as the illegal and immoral intended ones, of the nuclear arsenal on our doorstep, he warned that central Scotland, from the Clyde to the Forth, could become a desert because he knew that a nuclear war could start by intent, but it could also start by accident. The replacement of Polaris with Trident was controversial on its own terms. By 1994, when we wrote the pamphlet, according to the National Audit Office, there had already been an £800 million overspend, but Trident did not just bring about the proliferation of public money—it brought about the proliferation of public terror and, of course, it brought about the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Now, 30 years later, we are drifting towards Trident’s replacement with the Dreadnought programme. We are doing that “in conjunction with the United States”, we are told, working closely to ensure that it is it is compatible with the Trident strategic weapon system. In other words, we remain a client state to the US, and this at a time when we know that there is a possibility of the return of Donald Trump to the White House. Looking back 30 years ago, at the time I wrote: “Trident is a triumph of the military complex over the needs of the impoverished. It is a triumph of foreign policy over social and industrial policy.” I stand by those statements. I cannot think of a better time to launch John Ainslie’s archive than now, because he did ask the critical questions. He pioneered the use of freedom of information laws in search of truth and transparency. What better way to honour his memory than to continue with his work? Finally, John knew that nuclear weapons do not bring stability; that they corrode the very foundations of our civilisation; that if we do not destroy these weapons of mass destruction, they will destroy us. I remain an inveterate and unrepentant supporter of unilateral nuclear disarmament. In John’s memory, we rededicate ourselves today to that great cause.

Richard Leonard (Central Scotland) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25517

The Late Rev John Ainslie

I thank Bill Kidd for leading the debate on a motion that celebrates the life and work of John Ainslie. Last month marked the 30th anniversary of a publication that I do not think is in the archive. It is a pamphlet that John and I co-authored—a coproduction between the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and the Scottish Trades Union Congress: “Trident—Not Safe, Not Economic, Not Wanted” is its title. In it, we exposed the huge hidden costs of Trident and exposed the huge safety risk that it posed to the whole of central Scotland. It is a piece of work, three decades on, that I am proud of, not only because we were on the right side of the biggest moral question of our age—and I still firmly believe that to be true—but precisely because I worked on it with John. We would meet at 15 Barrland Street, on the south side of Glasgow, and at 16 Woodlands Terrace, in the grandeur of the STUC’s offices, with its views redolent of the cityscapes of Oscar Marzaroli. John’s job title at Scottish CND at that time was administrator, but John Ainslie was no bureaucrat. He was an activist, a thinker, a campaigner, a writer, a protester, and a man of the highest principles. Just listen to his simple, but arresting, opening line in that pamphlet: “A Trident submarine is designed to destroy a continent and to kill 200 million people.” In the ensuing years, he became an internationally respected authority on nuclear weapons and nuclear disarmament, and no one knew more about the road convoys of warheads that were travelling through Scotland than John. Acutely aware of the dangers, the risks, the hazards—the unintended consequences—as well as the illegal and immoral intended ones, of the nuclear arsenal on our doorstep, he warned that central Scotland, from the Clyde to the Forth, could become a desert because he knew that a nuclear war could start by intent, but it could also start by accident. The replacement of Polaris with Trident was controversial on its own terms. By 1994, when we wrote the pamphlet, according to the National Audit Office, there had already been an £800 million overspend, but Trident did not just bring about the proliferation of public money—it brought about the proliferation of public terror and, of course, it brought about the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Now, 30 years later, we are drifting towards Trident’s replacement with the Dreadnought programme. We are doing that “in conjunction with the United States”, we are told, working closely to ensure that it is it is compatible with the Trident strategic weapon system. In other words, we remain a client state to the US, and this at a time when we know that there is a possibility of the return of Donald Trump to the White House. Looking back 30 years ago, at the time I wrote: “Trident is a triumph of the military complex over the needs of the impoverished. It is a triumph of foreign policy over social and industrial policy.” I stand by those statements. I cannot think of a better time to launch John Ainslie’s archive than now, because he did ask the critical questions. He pioneered the use of freedom of information laws in search of truth and transparency. What better way to honour his memory than to continue with his work? Finally, John knew that nuclear weapons do not bring stability; that they corrode the very foundations of our civilisation; that if we do not destroy these weapons of mass destruction, they will destroy us. I remain an inveterate and unrepentant supporter of unilateral nuclear disarmament. In John’s memory, we rededicate ourselves today to that great cause.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.2.6

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture, Angus Robertson, to respond to the debate.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

The Late Rev John Ainslie

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture, Angus Robertson, to respond to the debate.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.2.7

I am delighted and honoured to close the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government. I sincerely thank Bill Kidd for lodging the motion and I express my appreciation to him and the wider cross-party working group on nuclear disarmament for their continued work on this important issue. I realise that I am at risk of repeating some of what has already been said, but it is important to begin by recognising the work and the legacy of the subject of Bill Kidd’s motion and the debate, namely that of the Rev John Ainslie, who sadly and prematurely passed away in 2016 after a battle with cancer. Today’s debate is a testament to his years of campaigning and his research on nuclear weapons and disarmament. As others have mentioned, he was a former British Army intelligence officer. He worked tirelessly for many years as part of the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, and he was appointed its co-ordinator in 1992. That was also the year of the first of the Rev John Ainslie’s 20 reports on nuclear policy, the last of which was published in 2016. The reports covered a range of issues, including the practicalities of British nuclear disarmament and Scotland’s contribution to it, the costs and risks of the UK’s nuclear weapons modernisation programme and the humanitarian consequences of the use of nuclear weapons by the United Kingdom. In addition to authoring reports, the Rev John Ainslie collected a vast number of documents—more than 3,000 of them—primarily related to the UK Government’s nuclear weapons programme. It is fitting that this debate is taking place on the day when we celebrate the return of that archive to Scotland, with events here in Parliament and at the National Library of Scotland, including an exhibition of some of the original documents. The whole of the collection is being added to the National Library. All those who are involved in digitising the archive and returning the physical files to Scotland for permanent storage are to be commended. I will briefly reflect on members’ contributions, and I begin with Bill Kidd. I think that everybody in the chamber, regardless of their views on nuclear disarmament, unilateral or multilateral—I think, or certainly hope, that we are all committed to one or the other—would agree that Bill has been an unceasing campaigner for nuclear disarmament and that he deserves recognition from us all. Some years ago, I was pleased to be able to attend the international conference on the humanitarian consequences of nuclear weapons with him, and I can attest to his deep commitment to the issue. Rona Mackay rightly reminded us all of the phrase “Bairns not bombs”, which many of us have had on bumper stickers and which we closely associate with the feeling of relative priorities when it comes to nuclear weapons against social policy. I have to say how gracious and thoughtful Jamie Greene was to make the contribution that he made. Notwithstanding the differences that he has with those of us who support a different approach to nuclear disarmament, he found a way of graciously marking his respect for John Ainslie without taking issue with his commitment to how we can secure a more peaceful world. On the joint publication that Richard Leonard co-wrote with John Ainslie 30 years ago—Richard must have been a very young man then—I hope that, if it is not already in the National Library, it will be. I encourage him to check the inventory there—let us make sure that that is part of the wider collection. The Scottish Government’s position on nuclear weapons is clear and long standing. We are firmly opposed to the possession, the threat and the use of nuclear weapons. They are strategically and economically wrong, undiscriminating and devastating in their impact. Their use would bring unspeakable humanitarian suffering and widespread environmental damage. It is worth noting that every single signatory of the non-proliferation treaty—all states, including the United Kingdom—is publicly committed to nuclear disarmament. Frankly, we should get on with it. The Scottish Government has consistently expressed a commitment to remove nuclear weapons from Scotland in the safest and most expeditious manner possible, following a vote for independence. That position was last set out in one of the “Building a New Scotland” series of papers titled “An independent Scotland’s place in the world”, which I launched in March this year. Nuclear weapons are obsolete, dangerous and impractical, yet in 2021 the UK Government broke its commitment to the international community by increasing the nuclear weapons stockpile to no more than 260 warheads. That is a 40 per cent increase from its 2010 commitment of no more than 180 warheads. In March this year, the Conservative Government published a command paper that set out that the UK’s nuclear weapons are the “Ministry of Defence’s number one priority.” It is disappointing, if not entirely unpredictable, that the new Labour UK Government is launching its strategic defence review in July and has reaffirmed its commitment to the UK’s nuclear arsenal. Breaking the commitment to the cap of 180 warheads is completely at odds with article 6 of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, to which the UK Government is a signatory. Two independent defence experts from the London School of Economics have also concluded that the UK’s increase of warheads constitutes a breach of article 6. Nuclear weapons do not provide a meaningful deterrent to many modern-day threats, such as terrorist attacks, and nor have they proven to be a deterrent to other nuclear-armed states carrying out atrocious acts, even on UK soil. Rather than making repeated and damaging cuts to conventional military forces and capabilities, the UK Government would do better to use the £41 billion that it is spending on replacing Trident to invest in modern conventional capabilities that are relevant to today’s threats. The Scottish Government supports the objective of the non-proliferation treaty and the international treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons. We recognise the key role that the international community has in collectively creating the conditions for a world without nuclear weapons. As I have said, the Scottish Government firmly opposes nuclear weapons. We wish to see the Dreadnought programme to replace Trident scrapped and the £41 billion of taxpayers’ money put to better use. We will continue to call on the UK Government to do just that. Finally, and most importantly, I again thank Bill Kidd for lodging the motion and members for their contributions. The Rev John Ainslie was not a person who sought the limelight but, through his expertise and his commitment to peace, he shone a light on the terrible weapons of mass destruction on our doorstep. I hope that, one day, we can achieve what he fought so long for—namely, a nation free of nuclear weapons.

The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

The Late Rev John Ainslie

I am delighted and honoured to close the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government. I sincerely thank Bill Kidd for lodging the motion and I express my appreciation to him and the wider cross-party working group on nuclear disarmament for their continued work on this important issue. I realise that I am at risk of repeating some of what has already been said, but it is important to begin by recognising the work and the legacy of the subject of Bill Kidd’s motion and the debate, namely that of the Rev John Ainslie, who sadly and prematurely passed away in 2016 after a battle with cancer. Today’s debate is a testament to his years of campaigning and his research on nuclear weapons and disarmament. As others have mentioned, he was a former British Army intelligence officer. He worked tirelessly for many years as part of the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, and he was appointed its co-ordinator in 1992. That was also the year of the first of the Rev John Ainslie’s 20 reports on nuclear policy, the last of which was published in 2016. The reports covered a range of issues, including the practicalities of British nuclear disarmament and Scotland’s contribution to it, the costs and risks of the UK’s nuclear weapons modernisation programme and the humanitarian consequences of the use of nuclear weapons by the United Kingdom. In addition to authoring reports, the Rev John Ainslie collected a vast number of documents—more than 3,000 of them—primarily related to the UK Government’s nuclear weapons programme. It is fitting that this debate is taking place on the day when we celebrate the return of that archive to Scotland, with events here in Parliament and at the National Library of Scotland, including an exhibition of some of the original documents. The whole of the collection is being added to the National Library. All those who are involved in digitising the archive and returning the physical files to Scotland for permanent storage are to be commended. I will briefly reflect on members’ contributions, and I begin with Bill Kidd. I think that everybody in the chamber, regardless of their views on nuclear disarmament, unilateral or multilateral—I think, or certainly hope, that we are all committed to one or the other—would agree that Bill has been an unceasing campaigner for nuclear disarmament and that he deserves recognition from us all. Some years ago, I was pleased to be able to attend the international conference on the humanitarian consequences of nuclear weapons with him, and I can attest to his deep commitment to the issue. Rona Mackay rightly reminded us all of the phrase “Bairns not bombs”, which many of us have had on bumper stickers and which we closely associate with the feeling of relative priorities when it comes to nuclear weapons against social policy. I have to say how gracious and thoughtful Jamie Greene was to make the contribution that he made. Notwithstanding the differences that he has with those of us who support a different approach to nuclear disarmament, he found a way of graciously marking his respect for John Ainslie without taking issue with his commitment to how we can secure a more peaceful world. On the joint publication that Richard Leonard co-wrote with John Ainslie 30 years ago—Richard must have been a very young man then—I hope that, if it is not already in the National Library, it will be. I encourage him to check the inventory there—let us make sure that that is part of the wider collection. The Scottish Government’s position on nuclear weapons is clear and long standing. We are firmly opposed to the possession, the threat and the use of nuclear weapons. They are strategically and economically wrong, undiscriminating and devastating in their impact. Their use would bring unspeakable humanitarian suffering and widespread environmental damage. It is worth noting that every single signatory of the non-proliferation treaty—all states, including the United Kingdom—is publicly committed to nuclear disarmament. Frankly, we should get on with it. The Scottish Government has consistently expressed a commitment to remove nuclear weapons from Scotland in the safest and most expeditious manner possible, following a vote for independence. That position was last set out in one of the “Building a New Scotland” series of papers titled “An independent Scotland’s place in the world”, which I launched in March this year. Nuclear weapons are obsolete, dangerous and impractical, yet in 2021 the UK Government broke its commitment to the international community by increasing the nuclear weapons stockpile to no more than 260 warheads. That is a 40 per cent increase from its 2010 commitment of no more than 180 warheads. In March this year, the Conservative Government published a command paper that set out that the UK’s nuclear weapons are the “Ministry of Defence’s number one priority.” It is disappointing, if not entirely unpredictable, that the new Labour UK Government is launching its strategic defence review in July and has reaffirmed its commitment to the UK’s nuclear arsenal. Breaking the commitment to the cap of 180 warheads is completely at odds with article 6 of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, to which the UK Government is a signatory. Two independent defence experts from the London School of Economics have also concluded that the UK’s increase of warheads constitutes a breach of article 6. Nuclear weapons do not provide a meaningful deterrent to many modern-day threats, such as terrorist attacks, and nor have they proven to be a deterrent to other nuclear-armed states carrying out atrocious acts, even on UK soil. Rather than making repeated and damaging cuts to conventional military forces and capabilities, the UK Government would do better to use the £41 billion that it is spending on replacing Trident to invest in modern conventional capabilities that are relevant to today’s threats. The Scottish Government supports the objective of the non-proliferation treaty and the international treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons. We recognise the key role that the international community has in collectively creating the conditions for a world without nuclear weapons. As I have said, the Scottish Government firmly opposes nuclear weapons. We wish to see the Dreadnought programme to replace Trident scrapped and the £41 billion of taxpayers’ money put to better use. We will continue to call on the UK Government to do just that. Finally, and most importantly, I again thank Bill Kidd for lodging the motion and members for their contributions. The Rev John Ainslie was not a person who sought the limelight but, through his expertise and his commitment to peace, he shone a light on the terrible weapons of mass destruction on our doorstep. I hope that, one day, we can achieve what he fought so long for—namely, a nation free of nuclear weapons.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.2.8

I suspend the meeting until 2 pm.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

The Late Rev John Ainslie

I suspend the meeting until 2 pm.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.2.9

Meeting suspended.

The Late Rev John Ainslie

Meeting suspended.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.2.10

On resuming—

The Late Rev John Ainslie

On resuming—

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.2

Good afternoon, colleagues. The first item of business is portfolio question time, and the portfolio on this occasion is social justice. Any member who is looking to ask a supplementary question should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question. I make the usual plea for brevity in both questions and answers.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Portfolio Question Time

Good afternoon, colleagues. The first item of business is portfolio question time, and the portfolio on this occasion is social justice. Any member who is looking to ask a supplementary question should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question. I make the usual plea for brevity in both questions and answers.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.4

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the implementation of the Housing (Cladding Remediation) (Scotland) Act 2024 and cladding remediation programme, including the Scottish safer buildings accord and single building assessment pilot programme. (S6O-03701)

1. Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25523

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the implementation of the Housing (Cladding Remediation) (Scotland) Act 2024 and cladding remediation programme, including the Scottish safer buildings accord and single building assessment pilot programme. (S6O-03701)

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.5

With the Housing (Cladding Remediation) (Scotland) Act 2024 and the single building assessment technical specification now in place, we are able to accelerate the pace of delivery. We will shortly provide a timetable for commencement of the 2024 act, prioritising the powers that are urgently needed, including the completion of the SBA standards to sit alongside the technical specification that has already been published. Pilot assessments have been undertaken for 30 of the pilot entries, with works to mitigate or remediate risks having started on five of those. We continue to work with developers to agree a contract in order to ensure that they can play their part in speeding up progress.

The Minister for Housing (Paul McLennan)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26005

Portfolio Question Time

With the Housing (Cladding Remediation) (Scotland) Act 2024 and the single building assessment technical specification now in place, we are able to accelerate the pace of delivery. We will shortly provide a timetable for commencement of the 2024 act, prioritising the powers that are urgently needed, including the completion of the SBA standards to sit alongside the technical specification that has already been published. Pilot assessments have been undertaken for 30 of the pilot entries, with works to mitigate or remediate risks having started on five of those. We continue to work with developers to agree a contract in order to ensure that they can play their part in speeding up progress.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.6

I welcome the progress that has been made through passing the 2024 act and undertaking what the minister has set out, and I appreciate the complex work that Scottish Government officials are doing on the issue. However, many of my constituents remain frustrated at the lack of progress and clear information coming both from the Government and from developers on their particular buildings. Can the minister provide further insight into when my constituents will start to receive more regular, clear proactive information on when remediation work may start in their buildings and, when it has started, on progress thereafter?

Ben Macpherson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25523

Portfolio Question Time

I welcome the progress that has been made through passing the 2024 act and undertaking what the minister has set out, and I appreciate the complex work that Scottish Government officials are doing on the issue. However, many of my constituents remain frustrated at the lack of progress and clear information coming both from the Government and from developers on their particular buildings. Can the minister provide further insight into when my constituents will start to receive more regular, clear proactive information on when remediation work may start in their buildings and, when it has started, on progress thereafter?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.7

I thank the member for that question, and I am grateful for his continuing commitment to his constituents on these issues. We are taking a number of steps to improve communications with residents, including a regular newsletter; improvement to the content and detail of the Scottish Government website; frequent engagement through the High Rise Action Scotland Group; and the development of a pre-assessment charter. We are shortly going to be refreshing pilot SBA assessments, as we now have the legislative and robust technical basis on which to do so; we will be writing to relevant owners and occupiers to inform them and to ensure that we undertake engagement pre and post that work. I am happy to meet the member to give a detailed update on developments in his constituency.

Paul McLennan

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26005

Portfolio Question Time

I thank the member for that question, and I am grateful for his continuing commitment to his constituents on these issues. We are taking a number of steps to improve communications with residents, including a regular newsletter; improvement to the content and detail of the Scottish Government website; frequent engagement through the High Rise Action Scotland Group; and the development of a pre-assessment charter. We are shortly going to be refreshing pilot SBA assessments, as we now have the legislative and robust technical basis on which to do so; we will be writing to relevant owners and occupiers to inform them and to ensure that we undertake engagement pre and post that work. I am happy to meet the member to give a detailed update on developments in his constituency.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.8

I would have expected greater urgency on the matter, because Scotland was quite far behind the curve already, certainly in comparison with the rest of the United Kingdom. I would have expected that the frustration that Ben Macpherson talked about would have been communicated to the sector and to the Government, and that action would have been swifter. What will the minister do in the next few weeks to ensure that we get some progress? We will have that frustration for much longer if he does not address that.

Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25111

Portfolio Question Time

I would have expected greater urgency on the matter, because Scotland was quite far behind the curve already, certainly in comparison with the rest of the United Kingdom. I would have expected that the frustration that Ben Macpherson talked about would have been communicated to the sector and to the Government, and that action would have been swifter. What will the minister do in the next few weeks to ensure that we get some progress? We will have that frustration for much longer if he does not address that.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.9

We had a meeting this morning, and I have a meeting with colleagues this afternoon, to talk about that very issue. I previously mentioned the 2024 act, which gives us additional powers to ensure that developers move at a quicker pace. We will continue to meet with developers and officials to pick up the pace. I know that progress needs to be quicker; we have acknowledged that, and we will be ensuring that the work moves at a quicker pace.

Paul McLennan

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26005

Portfolio Question Time

We had a meeting this morning, and I have a meeting with colleagues this afternoon, to talk about that very issue. I previously mentioned the 2024 act, which gives us additional powers to ensure that developers move at a quicker pace. We will continue to meet with developers and officials to pick up the pace. I know that progress needs to be quicker; we have acknowledged that, and we will be ensuring that the work moves at a quicker pace.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.11

To ask the Scottish Government, in light of reports of almost 10,000 children living in temporary accommodation and 110,000 households on the waiting list for affordable social housing, what progress it has made towards providing those affected with safe and affordable accommodation. (S6O-03702)

2. Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25538

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government, in light of reports of almost 10,000 children living in temporary accommodation and 110,000 households on the waiting list for affordable social housing, what progress it has made towards providing those affected with safe and affordable accommodation. (S6O-03702)

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.12

From 23 March 2022 to 31 March 2024, 21,092 homes have been delivered towards the 110,000 affordable homes target, of which 15,964—76 per cent—are homes for social rent. In 2024-25, we will invest nearly £600 million in affordable housing, the majority of which will be for social rent. That includes up to £40 million to increase the affordable housing supply and to acquire properties in order to reduce the number of households, especially those with children, in temporary accommodation. We are also providing £2 million in 2024-25 to local authorities that are experiencing sustained temporary accommodation pressures in order to support existing housing stock management and minimise void turnaround time.

The Minister for Housing (Paul McLennan)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26005

Portfolio Question Time

From 23 March 2022 to 31 March 2024, 21,092 homes have been delivered towards the 110,000 affordable homes target, of which 15,964—76 per cent—are homes for social rent. In 2024-25, we will invest nearly £600 million in affordable housing, the majority of which will be for social rent. That includes up to £40 million to increase the affordable housing supply and to acquire properties in order to reduce the number of households, especially those with children, in temporary accommodation. We are also providing £2 million in 2024-25 to local authorities that are experiencing sustained temporary accommodation pressures in order to support existing housing stock management and minimise void turnaround time.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.13

Scotland continues to be in the grip of a devastating housing emergency and, despite the Scottish Government’s commitment to tackle that national crisis, there has been a 10 per cent increase in households becoming homeless compared with last year. Every 16 minutes, a household becomes homeless and, every day, 45 children become homeless. What does the minister have to say to those thousands of people who have nowhere to call home?

Alexander Stewart

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25538

Portfolio Question Time

Scotland continues to be in the grip of a devastating housing emergency and, despite the Scottish Government’s commitment to tackle that national crisis, there has been a 10 per cent increase in households becoming homeless compared with last year. Every 16 minutes, a household becomes homeless and, every day, 45 children become homeless. What does the minister have to say to those thousands of people who have nowhere to call home?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.14

The Scottish Government recognises that these are exceptionally challenging times. The member mentioned the challenges, primarily in cities such as Glasgow and Edinburgh, whose representatives I meet on a regular basis. We are taking action to reduce homelessness and improve the supply of social and affordable housing. The cabinet secretary and I have met and worked with the housing coalition on a number of occasions, and we will continue to meet in order to focus on some of those points. As I said, we are looking at the £600 million that we have invested. We are working closely with local authorities, specifically on what they need for the housing emergency action plans that they bring forward. We need partnership working at all levels. We need to speak to the United Kingdom Government and local government, as well as housing sector partners, whom we continue to focus on, but a large number of actions are being taken from the meetings that we have been having.

Paul McLennan

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26005

Portfolio Question Time

The Scottish Government recognises that these are exceptionally challenging times. The member mentioned the challenges, primarily in cities such as Glasgow and Edinburgh, whose representatives I meet on a regular basis. We are taking action to reduce homelessness and improve the supply of social and affordable housing. The cabinet secretary and I have met and worked with the housing coalition on a number of occasions, and we will continue to meet in order to focus on some of those points. As I said, we are looking at the £600 million that we have invested. We are working closely with local authorities, specifically on what they need for the housing emergency action plans that they bring forward. We need partnership working at all levels. We need to speak to the United Kingdom Government and local government, as well as housing sector partners, whom we continue to focus on, but a large number of actions are being taken from the meetings that we have been having.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.15

We have a couple of supplementary questions, which I hope will be brief.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Portfolio Question Time

We have a couple of supplementary questions, which I hope will be brief.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.16

As well as the Scottish Government’s record on the delivery of social and affordable housing since 2007, will the minister detail how the proposed housing bill will build on Scotland’s already UK-leading homelessness prevention policies and help to avoid the stigma and adverse childhood experiences that are caused by not having a safe place to call home?

Collette Stevenson (East Kilbride) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26013

Portfolio Question Time

As well as the Scottish Government’s record on the delivery of social and affordable housing since 2007, will the minister detail how the proposed housing bill will build on Scotland’s already UK-leading homelessness prevention policies and help to avoid the stigma and adverse childhood experiences that are caused by not having a safe place to call home?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-12.3.17

The new homelessness prevention duties in the housing bill are groundbreaking and involve areas such as health and justice because, through the new ask and act duties, there is a shared public responsibility to prevent homelessness. We have been told by people with lived experience of the missed opportunities to prevent homelessness through earlier intervention, and we are determined to address those. Earlier intervention by a range of services, including local authorities, to prevent homelessness can mean fewer households with children going through the trauma, stigma and disruption to their lives that homelessness brings, as well as an easing of the pressures on housing supply. We continue to work with stakeholders to ensure that we have the right guidance in place for implementing the new duties.

Paul McLennan

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26005

Portfolio Question Time

The new homelessness prevention duties in the housing bill are groundbreaking and involve areas such as health and justice because, through the new ask and act duties, there is a shared public responsibility to prevent homelessness. We have been told by people with lived experience of the missed opportunities to prevent homelessness through earlier intervention, and we are determined to address those. Earlier intervention by a range of services, including local authorities, to prevent homelessness can mean fewer households with children going through the trauma, stigma and disruption to their lives that homelessness brings, as well as an easing of the pressures on housing supply. We continue to work with stakeholders to ensure that we have the right guidance in place for implementing the new duties.