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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.41

Yes. I absolutely give that assurance. I thank Colin Smyth for raising that hugely important point. Our current national parks are very different from each other. Again, the proposal would be starting from a blank sheet of paper in relation to the overall powers that the park would have, such as those over planning. There are issues around what the boundary looks like that could be discussed. Galloway is obviously of a very different nature from our other national park areas, as agriculture is so vital to the area as a whole. It is vital that all that is recognised. I absolutely encourage everyone who lives in the proposed area in Galloway to have their say through the events that I mentioned. All that information will be published and circulated to them.

Mairi Gougeon

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25503

Portfolio Question Time

Yes. I absolutely give that assurance. I thank Colin Smyth for raising that hugely important point. Our current national parks are very different from each other. Again, the proposal would be starting from a blank sheet of paper in relation to the overall powers that the park would have, such as those over planning. There are issues around what the boundary looks like that could be discussed. Galloway is obviously of a very different nature from our other national park areas, as agriculture is so vital to the area as a whole. It is vital that all that is recognised. I absolutely encourage everyone who lives in the proposed area in Galloway to have their say through the events that I mentioned. All that information will be published and circulated to them.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.43

To ask the Scottish Government what impact its recently announced budget reductions will have on investment in infrastructure that supports agriculture in remote and island communities. (S6O-03690)

6. Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25715

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what impact its recently announced budget reductions will have on investment in infrastructure that supports agriculture in remote and island communities. (S6O-03690)

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.44

The rural affairs, land reform and islands—RALRI—portfolio has supported the response to financial pressures by identifying small reductions, but none of those relate to investment in infrastructure that supports agriculture in rural and island communities. We continue to invest in agricultural communities. Last week, we announced that support payments of more than £243 million will start to be paid to more than 11,500 farming businesses. We are also driving an ambitious programme of vessel and infrastructure upgrades and replacements in the coming years, including port projects that are near completion, the six major vessels that are currently under construction and the seven small vessels that Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd is progressing through procurement.

The Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity (Jim Fairlie)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25995

Portfolio Question Time

The rural affairs, land reform and islands—RALRI—portfolio has supported the response to financial pressures by identifying small reductions, but none of those relate to investment in infrastructure that supports agriculture in rural and island communities. We continue to invest in agricultural communities. Last week, we announced that support payments of more than £243 million will start to be paid to more than 11,500 farming businesses. We are also driving an ambitious programme of vessel and infrastructure upgrades and replacements in the coming years, including port projects that are near completion, the six major vessels that are currently under construction and the seven small vessels that Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd is progressing through procurement.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.45

I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a partner in a farming business. On back British farming day, I thank farmers across the country, and particularly those from my region of the Highlands and Islands, for all that they do. It is now more than six years since Orkney’s abattoir closed and, despite the efforts of local stakeholders and warm words from the Scottish Government, no solution has yet been found for a new facility. Local abattoirs play an important role in supporting local rural businesses in agriculture, ensuring animal welfare and reducing food miles. On back British farming day, will the minister advise whether the Scottish Government is playing any role in supporting the establishment of a new abattoir in Orkney?

Jamie Halcro Johnston (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25715

Portfolio Question Time

I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a partner in a farming business. On back British farming day, I thank farmers across the country, and particularly those from my region of the Highlands and Islands, for all that they do. It is now more than six years since Orkney’s abattoir closed and, despite the efforts of local stakeholders and warm words from the Scottish Government, no solution has yet been found for a new facility. Local abattoirs play an important role in supporting local rural businesses in agriculture, ensuring animal welfare and reducing food miles. On back British farming day, will the minister advise whether the Scottish Government is playing any role in supporting the establishment of a new abattoir in Orkney?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.46

The loss of small abattoirs across the country has been a huge issue, and I fully accept that I was concerned about the issue long before I came to the Scottish Parliament. I am prepared to meet Jamie Halcro Johnston to discuss the Orkney issue specifically. Funding has gone in from the small producers pilot fund, but I do not want to specify where that will go. However, I absolutely take on board the fact that we have an issue with small abattoirs.

Jim Fairlie

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25995

Portfolio Question Time

The loss of small abattoirs across the country has been a huge issue, and I fully accept that I was concerned about the issue long before I came to the Scottish Parliament. I am prepared to meet Jamie Halcro Johnston to discuss the Orkney issue specifically. Funding has gone in from the small producers pilot fund, but I do not want to specify where that will go. However, I absolutely take on board the fact that we have an issue with small abattoirs.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.47

The minister will be aware that auction marts are beginning to leave islands, forcing island farmers and crofters to take their livestock off island to sell. That means that they accept lower prices, because otherwise they have to take those animals back on island. What can he do to help islands to continue to have their auction marts locally, so that they can sell their animals at the highest price?

Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14001

Portfolio Question Time

The minister will be aware that auction marts are beginning to leave islands, forcing island farmers and crofters to take their livestock off island to sell. That means that they accept lower prices, because otherwise they have to take those animals back on island. What can he do to help islands to continue to have their auction marts locally, so that they can sell their animals at the highest price?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.48

Unfortunately, agricultural markets are private businesses that take commercial decisions. However, the rural economy is absolutely founded on livestock markets. The auction houses that I have dealt with know that they have a responsibility to ensure that island communities can continue to trade. I am happy to have a conversation with Rhoda Grant and the auction market in question if there is a specific issue.

Jim Fairlie

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25995

Portfolio Question Time

Unfortunately, agricultural markets are private businesses that take commercial decisions. However, the rural economy is absolutely founded on livestock markets. The auction houses that I have dealt with know that they have a responsibility to ensure that island communities can continue to trade. I am happy to have a conversation with Rhoda Grant and the auction market in question if there is a specific issue.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.49

It has been suggested that local abattoirs are an integral part of the infrastructure that supports our farming community. Orkney has felt keenly the loss of the abattoir in the islands, but there are plans to develop a more bespoke abattoir, and assessments have been made of its viability. I echo the plea that the minister has already received that he engages with that and ensures that the Scottish Government gives whatever support it can to the delivery of an abattoir that is much needed in the islands that I represent.

Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Portfolio Question Time

It has been suggested that local abattoirs are an integral part of the infrastructure that supports our farming community. Orkney has felt keenly the loss of the abattoir in the islands, but there are plans to develop a more bespoke abattoir, and assessments have been made of its viability. I echo the plea that the minister has already received that he engages with that and ensures that the Scottish Government gives whatever support it can to the delivery of an abattoir that is much needed in the islands that I represent.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.50

I give the assurance that I am more than happy to meet Liam McArthur, and I am absolutely prepared to engage in whatever we can do to support any small abattoir.

Jim Fairlie

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25995

Portfolio Question Time

I give the assurance that I am more than happy to meet Liam McArthur, and I am absolutely prepared to engage in whatever we can do to support any small abattoir.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.52

To ask the Scottish Government what discussions the rural affairs secretary has had with ministerial colleagues regarding how its procurement powers can encourage the availability of healthy, local food. (S6O-03691)

7. Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25994

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what discussions the rural affairs secretary has had with ministerial colleagues regarding how its procurement powers can encourage the availability of healthy, local food. (S6O-03691)

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.53

The Scottish Government recognises that public procurement plays a key role in ensuring that everyone has access to healthy, fresh and seasonal food. That understanding is reflected in our draft good food nation plan, which outlines how we seek to maximise the impact that procurement can have through the application of relevant legislation and policy. Our cross-cutting approach is also supported by the ministerial working group on food, which enables ministers to work collectively to drive cross-portfolio engagement on food-related issues and ensure that food policy is co-ordinated and cohesive.

The Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands (Mairi Gougeon)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25503

Portfolio Question Time

The Scottish Government recognises that public procurement plays a key role in ensuring that everyone has access to healthy, fresh and seasonal food. That understanding is reflected in our draft good food nation plan, which outlines how we seek to maximise the impact that procurement can have through the application of relevant legislation and policy. Our cross-cutting approach is also supported by the ministerial working group on food, which enables ministers to work collectively to drive cross-portfolio engagement on food-related issues and ensure that food policy is co-ordinated and cohesive.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.54

Many third sector organisations, such as Grow 73 in my region, do great work and support local healthy food provision. They often rely on commissioned grants from the Scottish Government or from local government. I ask the cabinet secretary for her assurance that her Government is using all the powers in its control to support the procurement of good local food, and I ask her to give a guarantee that third sector organisations that provide access to it will get funding decisions in a prompt and efficient way.

Pam Duncan-Glancy

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25994

Portfolio Question Time

Many third sector organisations, such as Grow 73 in my region, do great work and support local healthy food provision. They often rely on commissioned grants from the Scottish Government or from local government. I ask the cabinet secretary for her assurance that her Government is using all the powers in its control to support the procurement of good local food, and I ask her to give a guarantee that third sector organisations that provide access to it will get funding decisions in a prompt and efficient way.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.55

Pam Duncan-Glancy raises a really important point, which we recognised in our draft good food nation plan. There are a number of mechanisms in the plan that I could set out—and I could follow up on them with her—as to how we can encourage local procurement within our existing powers. There are difficulties with procurement, including cross-cutting pieces of legislation to which we must adhere, but we know that there are places where it is working, and we can make it work within the current framework. We undertook a consultation on the draft good food nation plan earlier this year. We received a significant response, which I am really encouraged by, and I hope that we can strengthen some of its provisions. I look forward to having a discussion to see what more can be done. If there are specific organisations that Pam Duncan-Glancy would like me to engage with, I am more than happy to do that to see how we can strengthen the plan.

Mairi Gougeon

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25503

Portfolio Question Time

Pam Duncan-Glancy raises a really important point, which we recognised in our draft good food nation plan. There are a number of mechanisms in the plan that I could set out—and I could follow up on them with her—as to how we can encourage local procurement within our existing powers. There are difficulties with procurement, including cross-cutting pieces of legislation to which we must adhere, but we know that there are places where it is working, and we can make it work within the current framework. We undertook a consultation on the draft good food nation plan earlier this year. We received a significant response, which I am really encouraged by, and I hope that we can strengthen some of its provisions. I look forward to having a discussion to see what more can be done. If there are specific organisations that Pam Duncan-Glancy would like me to engage with, I am more than happy to do that to see how we can strengthen the plan.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.56

Some 85 per cent of the British public support increasing our self-sufficiency in food production in the United Kingdom. Today is back British farming day, and NFU Scotland is at Westminster, supporting MPs to mark this important day. Will the cabinet secretary support Scottish Conservative calls to hold a back British farming day here in the Scottish Parliament, so that we can celebrate the importance of Scottish farming?

Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25510

Portfolio Question Time

Some 85 per cent of the British public support increasing our self-sufficiency in food production in the United Kingdom. Today is back British farming day, and NFU Scotland is at Westminster, supporting MPs to mark this important day. Will the cabinet secretary support Scottish Conservative calls to hold a back British farming day here in the Scottish Parliament, so that we can celebrate the importance of Scottish farming?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.57

I would hope that we are supporting our farmers in the job that we do every day. That is hugely important. I know the work that is being undertaken by NFUS, which does sterling work in raising the profile and importance of our industry. I have been heartened by some of the questions that I have received from across the chamber today from members who recognise that the funding that we put into agriculture is hugely important, because of food production. It is such an essential, basic need, which we require in order to survive, and that is why I am proud to support our farmers. I am, of course, more than happy to enter into discussions with Rachael Hamilton if she has specific celebrations in mind. As ever, I am privileged, in this job, to travel across the country to meet our farmers and crofters and those who are involved in producing our food. I am, of course, happy to celebrate their achievements.

Mairi Gougeon

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25503

Portfolio Question Time

I would hope that we are supporting our farmers in the job that we do every day. That is hugely important. I know the work that is being undertaken by NFUS, which does sterling work in raising the profile and importance of our industry. I have been heartened by some of the questions that I have received from across the chamber today from members who recognise that the funding that we put into agriculture is hugely important, because of food production. It is such an essential, basic need, which we require in order to survive, and that is why I am proud to support our farmers. I am, of course, more than happy to enter into discussions with Rachael Hamilton if she has specific celebrations in mind. As ever, I am privileged, in this job, to travel across the country to meet our farmers and crofters and those who are involved in producing our food. I am, of course, happy to celebrate their achievements.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.58

We now come to question 8—time is marching on.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

We now come to question 8—time is marching on.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.60

To ask the Scottish Government what support it is providing for new entrants to farming. (S6O-03692)

8. Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13991

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what support it is providing for new entrants to farming. (S6O-03692)

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.61

The Scottish Government continues to invest in new entrants into farming and crofting. From 2015 to September 2024, around £9.5 million of young farmer and new entrants support funding has been paid under the national reserve. The Scottish Government has helped to identify 134 land opportunities through the farming opportunities for new entrants group, it has facilitated more than 250 joint ventures through the Scottish Land Matching Service, it has offered a range of consultancy advice to new entrants through the Farm Advisory Service and it has supported the machinery ring pre-apprenticeship programme and the next-generation practical training fund to create opportunities for new entrants and young people.

The Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity (Jim Fairlie)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25995

Portfolio Question Time

The Scottish Government continues to invest in new entrants into farming and crofting. From 2015 to September 2024, around £9.5 million of young farmer and new entrants support funding has been paid under the national reserve. The Scottish Government has helped to identify 134 land opportunities through the farming opportunities for new entrants group, it has facilitated more than 250 joint ventures through the Scottish Land Matching Service, it has offered a range of consultancy advice to new entrants through the Farm Advisory Service and it has supported the machinery ring pre-apprenticeship programme and the next-generation practical training fund to create opportunities for new entrants and young people.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.62

The minister will be aware of the issue that is having an impact on one of my Fife constituents, who, as a new entrant, was given a 10-year starter farm tenancy from Forestry and Land Scotland and built up a business but, at the end of that 10-year period, found it impossible to find alternative land to farm and now faces having to leave the industry altogether, which is a dismal outcome for everybody involved. What can the minister do to help my constituent and any others who are caught in a similar situation?

Murdo Fraser

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13991

Portfolio Question Time

The minister will be aware of the issue that is having an impact on one of my Fife constituents, who, as a new entrant, was given a 10-year starter farm tenancy from Forestry and Land Scotland and built up a business but, at the end of that 10-year period, found it impossible to find alternative land to farm and now faces having to leave the industry altogether, which is a dismal outcome for everybody involved. What can the minister do to help my constituent and any others who are caught in a similar situation?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.63

I am aware of the individual case that Murdo Fraser has raised. It is not a discussion that I would like to have in the chamber, but I am more than happy to meet him after this question-time session. The new entrants scheme was paused, because it was not having the desired effect, although some successes came out of that. As has just been released in the programme for government, we are asking our public authorities to consider what land they have so as to create more opportunities for new farmers and new entrants to farming. Speaking as someone who had an awful job trying to get into farming myself, I am absolutely committed to that. We will ensure that the Scottish Government is doing what it can to get young people into farming.

Jim Fairlie

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25995

Portfolio Question Time

I am aware of the individual case that Murdo Fraser has raised. It is not a discussion that I would like to have in the chamber, but I am more than happy to meet him after this question-time session. The new entrants scheme was paused, because it was not having the desired effect, although some successes came out of that. As has just been released in the programme for government, we are asking our public authorities to consider what land they have so as to create more opportunities for new farmers and new entrants to farming. Speaking as someone who had an awful job trying to get into farming myself, I am absolutely committed to that. We will ensure that the Scottish Government is doing what it can to get young people into farming.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.64

That concludes portfolio questions on rural affairs, land reform and islands.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

That concludes portfolio questions on rural affairs, land reform and islands.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.66

The next portfolio is national health service recovery, health and social care. Question 1 has been withdrawn.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

The next portfolio is national health service recovery, health and social care. Question 1 has been withdrawn.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.68

To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to Dr Stephen Smith’s evaluation of the alcohol-related brain damage residential rehabilitation service in Edinburgh. (S6O-03694)

2. Sue Webber (Lothian) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26017

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to Dr Stephen Smith’s evaluation of the alcohol-related brain damage residential rehabilitation service in Edinburgh. (S6O-03694)

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.69

The Scottish Government is currently reviewing the evaluation of the Penumbra Milestone alcohol-related brain damage—ARBD—unit that was undertaken by Dr Smith. The report highlights the improvement in cognitive function for people who were assessed in the evaluation period as well as reduced attendance rates at emergency departments. The Scottish Government will review the report’s findings and recommendations and will consider them in future policy development.

The Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health (Jenni Minto)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26007

Portfolio Question Time

The Scottish Government is currently reviewing the evaluation of the Penumbra Milestone alcohol-related brain damage—ARBD—unit that was undertaken by Dr Smith. The report highlights the improvement in cognitive function for people who were assessed in the evaluation period as well as reduced attendance rates at emergency departments. The Scottish Government will review the report’s findings and recommendations and will consider them in future policy development.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.70

This week, we learned that 1,277 people tragically lost their lives to alcohol in 2023—a 15-year high that is, quite frankly, nothing to celebrate. That is 1,277 people who have lived with years of poor health and who have left behind families and friends—the effects are felt by so, so many. We now have 40 per cent fewer people accessing alcohol services than a decade ago and, when people do access those services, they are much older and, as a result, have increasingly complex problems. The ARBD unit that is run by Penumbra at Milestone house saves lives, yet it is facing the withdrawal of funding. Given that the service reduces NHS Lothian hospital bed days by nearly 2,000 a year, what impact assessment has been carried out on what would happen if the service were to close?

Sue Webber

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26017

Portfolio Question Time

This week, we learned that 1,277 people tragically lost their lives to alcohol in 2023—a 15-year high that is, quite frankly, nothing to celebrate. That is 1,277 people who have lived with years of poor health and who have left behind families and friends—the effects are felt by so, so many. We now have 40 per cent fewer people accessing alcohol services than a decade ago and, when people do access those services, they are much older and, as a result, have increasingly complex problems. The ARBD unit that is run by Penumbra at Milestone house saves lives, yet it is facing the withdrawal of funding. Given that the service reduces NHS Lothian hospital bed days by nearly 2,000 a year, what impact assessment has been carried out on what would happen if the service were to close?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.71

I would like to put on record my sympathy and my condolences to all the families who have been impacted in the past year due to alcohol deaths of their loved ones. As Sue Webber will know, decisions on funding and service provision are made at a local level by NHS Lothian and, although we have no official contact with the health board on this issue, ministers would have to consider the implications of such a move very carefully. The Scottish Government has set out a clear definition of what counts as residential rehabilitation and has used it consistently. We are working with members of our expert residential rehabilitation development working group to assess whether the ARBD unit meets the definition and we will provide an update to the service manager in due course.

Jenni Minto

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26007

Portfolio Question Time

I would like to put on record my sympathy and my condolences to all the families who have been impacted in the past year due to alcohol deaths of their loved ones. As Sue Webber will know, decisions on funding and service provision are made at a local level by NHS Lothian and, although we have no official contact with the health board on this issue, ministers would have to consider the implications of such a move very carefully. The Scottish Government has set out a clear definition of what counts as residential rehabilitation and has used it consistently. We are working with members of our expert residential rehabilitation development working group to assess whether the ARBD unit meets the definition and we will provide an update to the service manager in due course.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.72

Following a Public Health Scotland report from February this year showing that the Scottish Government is on track to hit its target of 1,000 individuals per year being publicly funded to go to rehab by 2026, can the minister outline the key steps that are being taken to ensure that the target is met?

Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25074

Portfolio Question Time

Following a Public Health Scotland report from February this year showing that the Scottish Government is on track to hit its target of 1,000 individuals per year being publicly funded to go to rehab by 2026, can the minister outline the key steps that are being taken to ensure that the target is met?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.73

The Scottish Government is taking a number of actions to increase access to residential rehab and meet our targets. That includes providing alcohol and drug partnerships with £5 million per year for residential rehab; creating a £2 million residential rehab additional placement fund for local areas that have an increased demand for placements; and expanding residential rehab capacity by making £38 million available to eight projects across Scotland to provide 140 more beds by 2025-26.

Jenni Minto

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26007

Portfolio Question Time

The Scottish Government is taking a number of actions to increase access to residential rehab and meet our targets. That includes providing alcohol and drug partnerships with £5 million per year for residential rehab; creating a £2 million residential rehab additional placement fund for local areas that have an increased demand for placements; and expanding residential rehab capacity by making £38 million available to eight projects across Scotland to provide 140 more beds by 2025-26.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.74

Given the recent news that alcohol-related deaths are at a 15-year high and that the number of people who are accessing planned alcohol care and treatment has been declining for a decade, healthcare professionals in my region, South Scotland, tell me that the prevalence of ARBD unplanned presentations at emergency departments is increasing. That is not good for the patients, for the families or for the staff. Does the Government recognise that, and what measures is it taking to ensure that early intervention and support for those patients and families can be achieved right across Scotland?

Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26008

Portfolio Question Time

Given the recent news that alcohol-related deaths are at a 15-year high and that the number of people who are accessing planned alcohol care and treatment has been declining for a decade, healthcare professionals in my region, South Scotland, tell me that the prevalence of ARBD unplanned presentations at emergency departments is increasing. That is not good for the patients, for the families or for the staff. Does the Government recognise that, and what measures is it taking to ensure that early intervention and support for those patients and families can be achieved right across Scotland?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.75

Yes, the Scottish Government absolutely recognises that and we have asked Public Health Scotland to investigate the recent fall in numbers of referrals to alcohol and drug specialist services. We are giving funding to alcohol and drug partnerships for both alcohol and drug treatment services, because those services are integrated. We have made £112 million available to them, which is being used to ensure that they can make the right local decisions. I absolutely recognise that there has been a fall in numbers. We need to look at the reasons behind that, whether that is to do with stigma or a lack of understanding of where those services are.

Jenni Minto

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26007

Portfolio Question Time

Yes, the Scottish Government absolutely recognises that and we have asked Public Health Scotland to investigate the recent fall in numbers of referrals to alcohol and drug specialist services. We are giving funding to alcohol and drug partnerships for both alcohol and drug treatment services, because those services are integrated. We have made £112 million available to them, which is being used to ensure that they can make the right local decisions. I absolutely recognise that there has been a fall in numbers. We need to look at the reasons behind that, whether that is to do with stigma or a lack of understanding of where those services are.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.77

To ask the Scottish Government what recent discussions it has had with NHS Lanarkshire regarding the progress of the Monklands replacement project. (S6O-03695)

3. Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25521

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what recent discussions it has had with NHS Lanarkshire regarding the progress of the Monklands replacement project. (S6O-03695)

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.78

The business case remains under development and NHS Lanarkshire has been invited to provide an update to the Scottish Government’s capital investment group later this month.

The Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport (Maree Todd)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25540

Portfolio Question Time

The business case remains under development and NHS Lanarkshire has been invited to provide an update to the Scottish Government’s capital investment group later this month.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.79

Clearly, the financial circumstances are extremely difficult, with an austerity agenda being pursued by the United Kingdom Government. However, that said, I have had contact from many constituents who are worried that there may be further delays to the new hospital, which is badly needed. I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Neil Gray, will have had similar representations in his role as a constituency MSP, and I appreciate that that is why he cannot answer the question. To reassure my constituents, will the minister confirm that the Monklands replacement project remains a top priority for the Scottish Government?

Fulton MacGregor

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25521

Portfolio Question Time

Clearly, the financial circumstances are extremely difficult, with an austerity agenda being pursued by the United Kingdom Government. However, that said, I have had contact from many constituents who are worried that there may be further delays to the new hospital, which is badly needed. I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Neil Gray, will have had similar representations in his role as a constituency MSP, and I appreciate that that is why he cannot answer the question. To reassure my constituents, will the minister confirm that the Monklands replacement project remains a top priority for the Scottish Government?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.80

Yes, I understand the concerns of the member’s constituents. As we have made clear, the capital funding position is extremely challenging. All capital projects are under review to ensure that they are affordable and deliverable. The Scottish Government is in on-going discussions with NHS Lanarkshire and the impact of the budget settlement on the proposal to replace Monklands hospital. Further clarity on the health capital programme, including Monklands, will be provided following the 2025-26 Scottish budget and the review of the infrastructure investment plan.

Maree Todd

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25540

Portfolio Question Time

Yes, I understand the concerns of the member’s constituents. As we have made clear, the capital funding position is extremely challenging. All capital projects are under review to ensure that they are affordable and deliverable. The Scottish Government is in on-going discussions with NHS Lanarkshire and the impact of the budget settlement on the proposal to replace Monklands hospital. Further clarity on the health capital programme, including Monklands, will be provided following the 2025-26 Scottish budget and the review of the infrastructure investment plan.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.82

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on funding allocations to ensure the best possible cancer care for patients, particularly in their local communities. (S6O-03696)

4. Humza Yousaf (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25119

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on funding allocations to ensure the best possible cancer care for patients, particularly in their local communities. (S6O-03696)

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.83

The Scottish Government has disbursed cancer service allocations for this year to local health boards, including £4.6 million for systemic anti-cancer therapy and £11.3 million for cancer waiting times, in line with our overall strategic aim that, where possible, diagnostic tests and treatment are situated close to home and travel to specialist care is fully supported. In addition, we are working in partnership with Macmillan Cancer Support to improve the service that we offer patients in local communities through the transforming cancer care programme. It is the first programme of its kind in the United Kingdom and ensures that every patient with cancer in Scotland has access to a specialist key support worker who can assist them in accessing wider local services.

The Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health (Jenni Minto)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26007

Portfolio Question Time

The Scottish Government has disbursed cancer service allocations for this year to local health boards, including £4.6 million for systemic anti-cancer therapy and £11.3 million for cancer waiting times, in line with our overall strategic aim that, where possible, diagnostic tests and treatment are situated close to home and travel to specialist care is fully supported. In addition, we are working in partnership with Macmillan Cancer Support to improve the service that we offer patients in local communities through the transforming cancer care programme. It is the first programme of its kind in the United Kingdom and ensures that every patient with cancer in Scotland has access to a specialist key support worker who can assist them in accessing wider local services.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.84

I thank the minister for her comprehensive response. I am sure that she, like me, was pleased to see the results of the Scottish cancer patient experience survey, which was published yesterday and shows that 95 per cent of cancer patients viewed the care that they received positively. However, an area for improvement, and I know that the minister will share my view on this, is that cancer patients often tell us that they want a single point of contact throughout their cancer journey who can provide advice and support. Can the minister outline the support and funding that the Scottish Government is providing to embed single points of contact across Scotland’s national health service and, in particular, in the Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS Board area, which affects my constituents in Glasgow Pollok?

Humza Yousaf

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25119

Portfolio Question Time

I thank the minister for her comprehensive response. I am sure that she, like me, was pleased to see the results of the Scottish cancer patient experience survey, which was published yesterday and shows that 95 per cent of cancer patients viewed the care that they received positively. However, an area for improvement, and I know that the minister will share my view on this, is that cancer patients often tell us that they want a single point of contact throughout their cancer journey who can provide advice and support. Can the minister outline the support and funding that the Scottish Government is providing to embed single points of contact across Scotland’s national health service and, in particular, in the Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS Board area, which affects my constituents in Glasgow Pollok?

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.85

I reiterate the point that Humza Yousaf has made about the positive survey from Macmillan. I agree on the importance and effectiveness of a single point of contact to provide advice and support during a person’s cancer journey. In 2024-25, we have continued to invest in our single point of contact programme, including in NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde, where we have invested more than £250,000 to support people with gynaecological, prostate and lung cancer. We are working with Healthcare Improvement Scotland to review the programme to consider how we best scale the approach across Scotland.

Jenni Minto

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26007

Portfolio Question Time

I reiterate the point that Humza Yousaf has made about the positive survey from Macmillan. I agree on the importance and effectiveness of a single point of contact to provide advice and support during a person’s cancer journey. In 2024-25, we have continued to invest in our single point of contact programme, including in NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde, where we have invested more than £250,000 to support people with gynaecological, prostate and lung cancer. We are working with Healthcare Improvement Scotland to review the programme to consider how we best scale the approach across Scotland.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.86

Yesterday, the Scottish cancer patient experience survey for 2024 found that more than one in five cancer patients felt that they should have been seen much sooner for diagnosis. I think that we would all acknowledge that early intervention and treatment is key to beating cancer, but the Scottish Government’s continued failure to meet waiting time targets is putting lives at risk. Can the minister tell me what outcomes will be achieved by the additional £11 million that she mentioned? By when will that money improve the missed 31 and 62-day cancer waiting time targets?

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13949

Portfolio Question Time

Yesterday, the Scottish cancer patient experience survey for 2024 found that more than one in five cancer patients felt that they should have been seen much sooner for diagnosis. I think that we would all acknowledge that early intervention and treatment is key to beating cancer, but the Scottish Government’s continued failure to meet waiting time targets is putting lives at risk. Can the minister tell me what outcomes will be achieved by the additional £11 million that she mentioned? By when will that money improve the missed 31 and 62-day cancer waiting time targets?

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.87

Jackie Baillie is right to say that we have room for improvement on waiting times for cancer, and we are doing work in that regard. Some £1.2 million of the funding has been directed specifically towards diagnostics, and we continue to focus on improving timely access to cancer services, which is why our programme for government has committed to opening a further rapid cancer diagnostic service, bringing our national total to six.

Jenni Minto

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26007

Portfolio Question Time

Jackie Baillie is right to say that we have room for improvement on waiting times for cancer, and we are doing work in that regard. Some £1.2 million of the funding has been directed specifically towards diagnostics, and we continue to focus on improving timely access to cancer services, which is why our programme for government has committed to opening a further rapid cancer diagnostic service, bringing our national total to six.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.89

To ask the Scottish Government, in light of the recent outbreak of mpox in Africa, which was declared by the World Health Organization on 14 August to be a public health emergency of international concern, what plans it has put in place for any potential outbreak of mpox in Scotland. (S6O-03697)

5. Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26009

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government, in light of the recent outbreak of mpox in Africa, which was declared by the World Health Organization on 14 August to be a public health emergency of international concern, what plans it has put in place for any potential outbreak of mpox in Scotland. (S6O-03697)

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.90

We are aware of the recent outbreak of mpox in Africa, which has been declared as a public health emergency of international concern by the World Health Organization. Currently, there are no cases of clade I mpox confirmed in the United Kingdom, and the risk to the UK population is considered low. The Scottish Government and Public Health Scotland are working closely with public health colleagues across the UK, including other UK ministerial colleagues, as well as national health service boards in Scotland, to monitor the situation and prepare for any cases that we might see.

The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care (Neil Gray)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25293

Portfolio Question Time

We are aware of the recent outbreak of mpox in Africa, which has been declared as a public health emergency of international concern by the World Health Organization. Currently, there are no cases of clade I mpox confirmed in the United Kingdom, and the risk to the UK population is considered low. The Scottish Government and Public Health Scotland are working closely with public health colleagues across the UK, including other UK ministerial colleagues, as well as national health service boards in Scotland, to monitor the situation and prepare for any cases that we might see.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.91

Will the cabinet secretary provide an update on how the general population is being informed about the disease and assure the public that transmission rates are, as he said, a low risk to the general population?

Audrey Nicoll

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26009

Portfolio Question Time

Will the cabinet secretary provide an update on how the general population is being informed about the disease and assure the public that transmission rates are, as he said, a low risk to the general population?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.92

I thank Audrey Nicoll for raising that important issue. Colleagues will have received a letter that I sent to all MSPs on 28 August. I have offered a meeting and a briefing for all Opposition colleagues next week to discuss the issue and to make sure that, from a public information perspective, we, as local leaders, are able to provide reassurance that Public Health Scotland continues to work closely with UK Health Security Agency colleagues to update a range of guidance for health professionals and the general public on mpox, in relation to the existing outbreak of clade IIb mpox, which has been present in the UK since 2022, and investigation and planning for the new strain, clade Ib, which has been spreading in parts of Africa. The guidance includes updates to the Public Health Scotland website and NHS Inform, which provides information to the general public on mpox, including on how it is transmitted, symptoms, who to contact, treatment and dos and don’ts for travellers, as well as updates for the fitfortravel website for travellers to central Africa. The overall risk to the public is considered low, and, to date, there have been no cases of clade Ib in Scotland. We are reminding people who have travelled recently to the affected areas to be aware of the signs and symptoms and to contact a health professional if they are concerned.

Neil Gray

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25293

Portfolio Question Time

I thank Audrey Nicoll for raising that important issue. Colleagues will have received a letter that I sent to all MSPs on 28 August. I have offered a meeting and a briefing for all Opposition colleagues next week to discuss the issue and to make sure that, from a public information perspective, we, as local leaders, are able to provide reassurance that Public Health Scotland continues to work closely with UK Health Security Agency colleagues to update a range of guidance for health professionals and the general public on mpox, in relation to the existing outbreak of clade IIb mpox, which has been present in the UK since 2022, and investigation and planning for the new strain, clade Ib, which has been spreading in parts of Africa. The guidance includes updates to the Public Health Scotland website and NHS Inform, which provides information to the general public on mpox, including on how it is transmitted, symptoms, who to contact, treatment and dos and don’ts for travellers, as well as updates for the fitfortravel website for travellers to central Africa. The overall risk to the public is considered low, and, to date, there have been no cases of clade Ib in Scotland. We are reminding people who have travelled recently to the affected areas to be aware of the signs and symptoms and to contact a health professional if they are concerned.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.94

To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to support specialist neonatal intensive care units across Scotland. (S6O-03698)

6. Richard Leonard (Central Scotland) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25517

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to support specialist neonatal intensive care units across Scotland. (S6O-03698)

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.95

The Scottish Government commissioned independent modelling of neonatal intensive care in Scotland, and the report was published on 29 May. We have asked the regional chief executives to progress with development of implementation plans, with the expectation that implementation of the new model is phased over the next one to two years. Additionally, the Scottish Government, with the support of Health Improvement Scotland and Bliss, has consulted families on implementation of the new model. We are sharing the outputs of that consultation with regional chief executives to inform development of pathways and processes for the new model of care. Jointly with national clinical leads, we are considering Scotland-level actions required. The Scottish Government continues to provide funding to the boards hosting the neonatal intensive care units to build the capacity required.

The Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health (Jenni Minto)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26007

Portfolio Question Time

The Scottish Government commissioned independent modelling of neonatal intensive care in Scotland, and the report was published on 29 May. We have asked the regional chief executives to progress with development of implementation plans, with the expectation that implementation of the new model is phased over the next one to two years. Additionally, the Scottish Government, with the support of Health Improvement Scotland and Bliss, has consulted families on implementation of the new model. We are sharing the outputs of that consultation with regional chief executives to inform development of pathways and processes for the new model of care. Jointly with national clinical leads, we are considering Scotland-level actions required. The Scottish Government continues to provide funding to the boards hosting the neonatal intensive care units to build the capacity required.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.96

I thank the minister for her reply, but let us get the facts straight here. The proposal to downgrade the neonatal unit at Wishaw hospital is based on inconsistent, old and inaccurate data, a flawed methodology, and excluded any consultation with parents and families. This morning, the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee considered a petition from those same parents and families. As a result, the committee has agreed to go on a site visit. Why has Scotland’s Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health never done the same? Will she now visit the Wishaw specialist neonatal intensive care unit, speak to staff and listen to their concerns? Will she review again her decision to downgrade the unit in Wishaw in the light of deliverability, capacity and resilience issues that risk not only the human rights but the human lives of those affected?

Richard Leonard

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25517

Portfolio Question Time

I thank the minister for her reply, but let us get the facts straight here. The proposal to downgrade the neonatal unit at Wishaw hospital is based on inconsistent, old and inaccurate data, a flawed methodology, and excluded any consultation with parents and families. This morning, the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee considered a petition from those same parents and families. As a result, the committee has agreed to go on a site visit. Why has Scotland’s Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health never done the same? Will she now visit the Wishaw specialist neonatal intensive care unit, speak to staff and listen to their concerns? Will she review again her decision to downgrade the unit in Wishaw in the light of deliverability, capacity and resilience issues that risk not only the human rights but the human lives of those affected?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.97

I am sure that Richard Leonard would like to correct the parliamentary record, because I have visited the Wishaw neonatal unit. I have also visited Ninewells hospital and the Queen Elizabeth university hospital and I have been gathering evidence from people across the health boards and the neonatal and maternity services that Scotland provides. I am completely focused on ensuring that we make the right decision for the smallest and sickest babies in Scotland. I have read on numerous occasions the expert advice that we have received and I have spoken to the people who were involved in producing it, and that advice shows that reducing to three the number of intensive neonatal care units is the correct decision to support families with the smallest and sickest babies.

Jenni Minto

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26007

Portfolio Question Time

I am sure that Richard Leonard would like to correct the parliamentary record, because I have visited the Wishaw neonatal unit. I have also visited Ninewells hospital and the Queen Elizabeth university hospital and I have been gathering evidence from people across the health boards and the neonatal and maternity services that Scotland provides. I am completely focused on ensuring that we make the right decision for the smallest and sickest babies in Scotland. I have read on numerous occasions the expert advice that we have received and I have spoken to the people who were involved in producing it, and that advice shows that reducing to three the number of intensive neonatal care units is the correct decision to support families with the smallest and sickest babies.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.98

Can the minister speak to the success of the implementation of “The Best Start: A Five-Year Forward Plan for Maternity and Neonatal Care in Scotland”, and advise how the Scottish Government will continue to ensure that women and babies receive the highest quality of care according to their needs?

Clare Haughey (Rutherglen) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25513

Portfolio Question Time

Can the minister speak to the success of the implementation of “The Best Start: A Five-Year Forward Plan for Maternity and Neonatal Care in Scotland”, and advise how the Scottish Government will continue to ensure that women and babies receive the highest quality of care according to their needs?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.99

The plan set out our vision of a transformation of maternity and neonatal services, and the vast majority of its recommendations have been implemented. Health boards have embedded the plan in local maternity and neonatal care, and that has been supported by national initiatives such as the young patients family fund, improvements to adverse events investigating and the national bereavement care pathway. Work continues to establish the new model of neonatal intensive care and to deliver continuity of carer, which is highlighted as a programme for government commitment. I thank all the people who have been involved in helping to achieve the best start vision, and we will publish a full programme report later this year.

Jenni Minto

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26007

Portfolio Question Time

The plan set out our vision of a transformation of maternity and neonatal services, and the vast majority of its recommendations have been implemented. Health boards have embedded the plan in local maternity and neonatal care, and that has been supported by national initiatives such as the young patients family fund, improvements to adverse events investigating and the national bereavement care pathway. Work continues to establish the new model of neonatal intensive care and to deliver continuity of carer, which is highlighted as a programme for government commitment. I thank all the people who have been involved in helping to achieve the best start vision, and we will publish a full programme report later this year.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.101

To ask the Scottish Government what impact reductions to mental health budgets will have on child and adult mental health services. (S6O-03699)

7. Meghan Gallacher (Central Scotland) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25997

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what impact reductions to mental health budgets will have on child and adult mental health services. (S6O-03699)

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.102

Following the United Kingdom Chancellor of the Exchequer’s July statement, the Scottish Government continues to face the most challenging financial situation since devolution. We have sought to protect mental health funding despite difficult decisions about reductions, which affect the whole Government. Although any reduction is regrettable, we remain committed to taking forward our work across mental health and working closely with key partners. Our collective focus has to be on making as much difference as possible with our funding. We will continue to pursue our commitment to addressing waiting times backlogs, through our direct engagement with national health service boards, and to drive forward the delivery of our mental health and wellbeing strategy and associated delivery plan, by investing in prevention and early intervention as well as in services.

The Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport (Maree Todd)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25540

Portfolio Question Time

Following the United Kingdom Chancellor of the Exchequer’s July statement, the Scottish Government continues to face the most challenging financial situation since devolution. We have sought to protect mental health funding despite difficult decisions about reductions, which affect the whole Government. Although any reduction is regrettable, we remain committed to taking forward our work across mental health and working closely with key partners. Our collective focus has to be on making as much difference as possible with our funding. We will continue to pursue our commitment to addressing waiting times backlogs, through our direct engagement with national health service boards, and to drive forward the delivery of our mental health and wellbeing strategy and associated delivery plan, by investing in prevention and early intervention as well as in services.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.103

Regrettable is one word, but disgraceful is another, because, in some areas of the country, 60 per cent of children and young people are not being seen until between 19 and 35 weeks after their referrals to child and adolescent mental health services. How does the minister intend to tackle CAMHS waiting lists when funding for those services has been disproportionately cut by £18.8 million? Does she feel that those cuts are proportionate?

Meghan Gallacher

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25997

Portfolio Question Time

Regrettable is one word, but disgraceful is another, because, in some areas of the country, 60 per cent of children and young people are not being seen until between 19 and 35 weeks after their referrals to child and adolescent mental health services. How does the minister intend to tackle CAMHS waiting lists when funding for those services has been disproportionately cut by £18.8 million? Does she feel that those cuts are proportionate?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.104

To be clear, CAMHS funding has not been cut by £18.8 million. The reduction in mental health portfolios has been achieved largely through programmes being adapted or by taking back money from programmes that have come to an end. In some cases, when it has been possible, work has been reprofiled. We have a really good news story to tell about CAMHS. I am very proud of the sustained progress that we have made over the past few years. That has been down to enormous effort from staff all over Scotland. However, in the first half of this year, we have seen the best national performance against CAMHS waiting times since the 18-week standard was introduced 10 years ago, in 2014. In the quarter up to June 2024, 84.1 per cent of CAMHS patients started treatment within 18 weeks of referral, and that proportion was up from 73.8 per cent in the same quarter in the previous year. For the second quarter in a row, eight out of 14 of our territorial boards met the 90 per cent standard, and one in two children and young people who are referred to CAMHS now start treatment within six weeks.

Maree Todd

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25540

Portfolio Question Time

To be clear, CAMHS funding has not been cut by £18.8 million. The reduction in mental health portfolios has been achieved largely through programmes being adapted or by taking back money from programmes that have come to an end. In some cases, when it has been possible, work has been reprofiled. We have a really good news story to tell about CAMHS. I am very proud of the sustained progress that we have made over the past few years. That has been down to enormous effort from staff all over Scotland. However, in the first half of this year, we have seen the best national performance against CAMHS waiting times since the 18-week standard was introduced 10 years ago, in 2014. In the quarter up to June 2024, 84.1 per cent of CAMHS patients started treatment within 18 weeks of referral, and that proportion was up from 73.8 per cent in the same quarter in the previous year. For the second quarter in a row, eight out of 14 of our territorial boards met the 90 per cent standard, and one in two children and young people who are referred to CAMHS now start treatment within six weeks.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.105

Thank you, minister. We need to go to supplementary questions.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

Thank you, minister. We need to go to supplementary questions.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.106

Will the minister advise on the Scottish Government’s progress towards meeting the child and adolescent mental health services waiting times national standard?

Collette Stevenson (East Kilbride) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26013

Portfolio Question Time

Will the minister advise on the Scottish Government’s progress towards meeting the child and adolescent mental health services waiting times national standard?

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.107

As I made clear in my previous answer, I am really proud of the progress that we have made. Eight out of the 14 boards met the 90 per cent standard for the second quarter in a row. That is a substantial improvement on where we have been in the past. One in two children and young people who are referred to CAMHS now start treatment within six weeks, compared with within 12 weeks before the pandemic. During the past few years, there has been real and sustained improvement, which was not apparent prior to the pandemic. However, we are not complacent, despite the progress, and we continue to be absolutely clear that long waits are unacceptable. Performance varies across health boards, and enhanced support is available from the Government to individual health boards that are not on track to meet the standard.

Maree Todd

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25540

Portfolio Question Time

As I made clear in my previous answer, I am really proud of the progress that we have made. Eight out of the 14 boards met the 90 per cent standard for the second quarter in a row. That is a substantial improvement on where we have been in the past. One in two children and young people who are referred to CAMHS now start treatment within six weeks, compared with within 12 weeks before the pandemic. During the past few years, there has been real and sustained improvement, which was not apparent prior to the pandemic. However, we are not complacent, despite the progress, and we continue to be absolutely clear that long waits are unacceptable. Performance varies across health boards, and enhanced support is available from the Government to individual health boards that are not on track to meet the standard.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.108

The minister says that she has been trying to protect mental health funding, but I am afraid that the Government does not have a good track record. The health budget for mental health has been frozen or cut in-year for the past two years, with almost £20 million in cuts announced just last week. In the programme for government, the Government said that it would commit to £120 million of funding for mental health. Will that be new money, or is it just a repackaging of existing funding?

Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25639

Portfolio Question Time

The minister says that she has been trying to protect mental health funding, but I am afraid that the Government does not have a good track record. The health budget for mental health has been frozen or cut in-year for the past two years, with almost £20 million in cuts announced just last week. In the programme for government, the Government said that it would commit to £120 million of funding for mental health. Will that be new money, or is it just a repackaging of existing funding?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.109

The £120 million commitment was apparent from the budget that we, as a Parliament, collectively passed earlier this year. I have been clear that the savings have been made largely, but not solely, by reprofiling spend. We will slow down the pace of our delivery on commitments by removing some marketing funding and by pulling together the funding, for example, in the mental health enhanced outcomes framework, which brings together a number of previous mental health funding streams. We now offer a single flexible funding stream to NHS boards and integration joint boards, which means that they can use it significantly more flexibly. It is no longer ring fenced, and we have taken a saving back from that. I think that that will work better.

Maree Todd

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25540

Portfolio Question Time

The £120 million commitment was apparent from the budget that we, as a Parliament, collectively passed earlier this year. I have been clear that the savings have been made largely, but not solely, by reprofiling spend. We will slow down the pace of our delivery on commitments by removing some marketing funding and by pulling together the funding, for example, in the mental health enhanced outcomes framework, which brings together a number of previous mental health funding streams. We now offer a single flexible funding stream to NHS boards and integration joint boards, which means that they can use it significantly more flexibly. It is no longer ring fenced, and we have taken a saving back from that. I think that that will work better.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.111

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide any additional funding to NHS Highland, in light of the reported overspend in excess of £50 million by the NHS board in its 2023-24 revenue budget. (S6O-03700)

8. Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25529

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide any additional funding to NHS Highland, in light of the reported overspend in excess of £50 million by the NHS board in its 2023-24 revenue budget. (S6O-03700)

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.112

We provided increased investment of £0.5 billion for national health service boards in 2024-25, which took funding to more than £14.2 billion. That is an increase of almost 3 per cent in real terms, with NHS Highland seeing £39 million of increased investment for 2024-25. Notwithstanding that investment, NHS boards, like other public services, are under unprecedented pressure as a result of spiralling United Kingdom inflation—which has eroded our spending power—Brexit and Covid, and we continue to work with them to address the financial challenges this year and beyond. The Scottish Government recognises the continued financial and operational pressures that the health and social care sector faces and the need to recover, reform and improve services.

The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care (Neil Gray)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25293

Portfolio Question Time

We provided increased investment of £0.5 billion for national health service boards in 2024-25, which took funding to more than £14.2 billion. That is an increase of almost 3 per cent in real terms, with NHS Highland seeing £39 million of increased investment for 2024-25. Notwithstanding that investment, NHS boards, like other public services, are under unprecedented pressure as a result of spiralling United Kingdom inflation—which has eroded our spending power—Brexit and Covid, and we continue to work with them to address the financial challenges this year and beyond. The Scottish Government recognises the continued financial and operational pressures that the health and social care sector faces and the need to recover, reform and improve services.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.113

In short, I think that that means no. As there will be no additional funding and there is no way for NHS Highland to save additional funds by reducing its biggest cost, which is staff costs, will the cabinet secretary reveal which elective surgeries the Government suggests that NHS Highland should cancel to allow it to remain financially solvent?

Edward Mountain

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25529

Portfolio Question Time

In short, I think that that means no. As there will be no additional funding and there is no way for NHS Highland to save additional funds by reducing its biggest cost, which is staff costs, will the cabinet secretary reveal which elective surgeries the Government suggests that NHS Highland should cancel to allow it to remain financially solvent?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.114

Through our finance directorate, we are supporting NHS boards, including NHS Highland, to work through the financial pressures that they are facing and to work to their financial recovery plans. I have a good working relationship with the new chief executive, Fiona Davies, in relation to meeting those financial plans. We will continue to work to protect front-line NHS provision rather than, as Edward Mountain suggests, seeing it stripped back.

Neil Gray

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25293

Portfolio Question Time

Through our finance directorate, we are supporting NHS boards, including NHS Highland, to work through the financial pressures that they are facing and to work to their financial recovery plans. I have a good working relationship with the new chief executive, Fiona Davies, in relation to meeting those financial plans. We will continue to work to protect front-line NHS provision rather than, as Edward Mountain suggests, seeing it stripped back.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.115

I have two requests for supplementary questions. I intend to take both, but I ask that they are both kept brief.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

I have two requests for supplementary questions. I intend to take both, but I ask that they are both kept brief.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.116

General practitioners in the Highlands assure me that £6 million could be saved every year if NHS Highland were to return to GPs the service of providing vaccinations. Adopting that approach across Scotland would lead to savings of £100 million. I have been pressing for that to happen for two and a half years. Why will the cabinet secretary not order NHS Highland to make those savings?

Fergus Ewing (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13980

Portfolio Question Time

General practitioners in the Highlands assure me that £6 million could be saved every year if NHS Highland were to return to GPs the service of providing vaccinations. Adopting that approach across Scotland would lead to savings of £100 million. I have been pressing for that to happen for two and a half years. Why will the cabinet secretary not order NHS Highland to make those savings?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.117

Fergus Ewing and I have engaged previously on that point, including with local GPs in his constituency. He will be aware that the 2018 GP contract was agreed between the Scottish Government and the British Medical Association following a poll of the profession. The transfer of vaccinations was a key element of that contract and allows GPs to focus on what only they can do. That does not mean that GPs should never deliver vaccinations; the contract provides flexibility in rural situations. I have asked NHS Highland to make full use of all the flexibilities in the GP contract to ensure comprehensive delivery of our vaccination programmes. I understand that the latest NHS Highland vaccination data demonstrates improved rates.

Neil Gray

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25293

Portfolio Question Time

Fergus Ewing and I have engaged previously on that point, including with local GPs in his constituency. He will be aware that the 2018 GP contract was agreed between the Scottish Government and the British Medical Association following a poll of the profession. The transfer of vaccinations was a key element of that contract and allows GPs to focus on what only they can do. That does not mean that GPs should never deliver vaccinations; the contract provides flexibility in rural situations. I have asked NHS Highland to make full use of all the flexibilities in the GP contract to ensure comprehensive delivery of our vaccination programmes. I understand that the latest NHS Highland vaccination data demonstrates improved rates.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.118

It was good to hear the cabinet secretary lay out the increase in funding that NHS Highland received from the Scottish Government this financial year, and that the Government is willing to support it in light of further financial challenges. What level of cut would have been delivered to the health board if we had followed the real-terms cut to health resource spending that was laid out by the then UK Government?

Emma Roddick (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26011

Portfolio Question Time

It was good to hear the cabinet secretary lay out the increase in funding that NHS Highland received from the Scottish Government this financial year, and that the Government is willing to support it in light of further financial challenges. What level of cut would have been delivered to the health board if we had followed the real-terms cut to health resource spending that was laid out by the then UK Government?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.0.119

In 2024-25, NHS Highland’s resource budget increased by 3.7 per cent in real terms, compared with last year. In cash terms, its budget increased by £39 million, which is 5.1 per cent, in the same period. Had the Scottish Government followed the then UK Government’s spending for the Department of Health and Social Care, NHS Highland would have had a real-terms cut of 0.2 per cent. That highlights the importance that the Scottish Government places on increasing the resources that are available to us through more progressive taxation, which is opposed by both Labour and the Tories. Had we followed their advice, our health boards, including NHS Highland, would have been in a much worse situation.

Neil Gray

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25293

Portfolio Question Time

In 2024-25, NHS Highland’s resource budget increased by 3.7 per cent in real terms, compared with last year. In cash terms, its budget increased by £39 million, which is 5.1 per cent, in the same period. Had the Scottish Government followed the then UK Government’s spending for the Department of Health and Social Care, NHS Highland would have had a real-terms cut of 0.2 per cent. That highlights the importance that the Scottish Government places on increasing the resources that are available to us through more progressive taxation, which is opposed by both Labour and the Tories. Had we followed their advice, our health boards, including NHS Highland, would have been in a much worse situation.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.1

The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14406, in the name of Liam Kerr, on free school meals for all primary pupils. I invite members who wish to participate in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons now or as soon as possible. I warn members that there is no time in hand so they will have to stick to their speaking allocations. I call Liam Kerr to speak to and move the motion. You have up to seven minutes, Mr Kerr.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14406, in the name of Liam Kerr, on free school meals for all primary pupils. I invite members who wish to participate in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons now or as soon as possible. I warn members that there is no time in hand so they will have to stick to their speaking allocations. I call Liam Kerr to speak to and move the motion. You have up to seven minutes, Mr Kerr.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.2

How times change. Do members remember the then First Minister promising in 2015 to completely close the attainment gap? Now, this Government simply aspires to reduce it. We have had warm words from the current First Minister, who has stated that the eradication of child poverty is “the single greatest priority for this Government.” However, last week’s debate highlighted not only that the child poverty rate has remained largely unchanged since 2007, but that the Scottish National Party’s multiple failures have had a detrimental impact. I bring that up because of another promise. This one was made in the SNP’s 2021 manifesto, which said that “Over the course of the next parliament”, it would make sure that “no child is hungry in the classroom by providing free school breakfasts and lunches to every primary school pupil, all year round”, yet we heard last week that the provision will be only to primary 6 and 7 pupils whose families are in receipt of the Scottish child payment. Let us be very clear about what that means.

Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25515

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

How times change. Do members remember the then First Minister promising in 2015 to completely close the attainment gap? Now, this Government simply aspires to reduce it. We have had warm words from the current First Minister, who has stated that the eradication of child poverty is “the single greatest priority for this Government.” However, last week’s debate highlighted not only that the child poverty rate has remained largely unchanged since 2007, but that the Scottish National Party’s multiple failures have had a detrimental impact. I bring that up because of another promise. This one was made in the SNP’s 2021 manifesto, which said that “Over the course of the next parliament”, it would make sure that “no child is hungry in the classroom by providing free school breakfasts and lunches to every primary school pupil, all year round”, yet we heard last week that the provision will be only to primary 6 and 7 pupils whose families are in receipt of the Scottish child payment. Let us be very clear about what that means.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.3

[Made a request to intervene.]

Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25516

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

[Made a request to intervene.]

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.4

I will take Monica Lennon’s intervention later. Last week, John Swinney confirmed in this Parliament that he was scrapping the SNP’s pledge to introduce universal free school meals for P6 and P7 pupils. A promise was made, and that promise has been broken. Here is the issue: we know that the Scottish Government has never seriously tried to close the attainment gap. It does not know how to do that; it has not forensically worked out what interventions would be required to do it. However, everyone knows that our kids need food in order to be ready to learn. As the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland said yesterday, “Going to school hungry is not only a barrier to learning and educational achievement but it can severely impact development in childhood and into adulthood”. The mission of eradicating child poverty will be set back by the Government’s decision, as it has been told by Save the Children, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the Child Poverty Action Group.

Liam Kerr

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25515

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I will take Monica Lennon’s intervention later. Last week, John Swinney confirmed in this Parliament that he was scrapping the SNP’s pledge to introduce universal free school meals for P6 and P7 pupils. A promise was made, and that promise has been broken. Here is the issue: we know that the Scottish Government has never seriously tried to close the attainment gap. It does not know how to do that; it has not forensically worked out what interventions would be required to do it. However, everyone knows that our kids need food in order to be ready to learn. As the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland said yesterday, “Going to school hungry is not only a barrier to learning and educational achievement but it can severely impact development in childhood and into adulthood”. The mission of eradicating child poverty will be set back by the Government’s decision, as it has been told by Save the Children, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the Child Poverty Action Group.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.5

I welcome Liam Kerr’s motion and hope that the whole Parliament will back it today. All primary school pupils in Wales and in London have free school meals because that has been made a political priority. Does Liam Kerr agree that the SNP needs to drop the spin and the excuses in its amendment and put the needs of Scotland’s children first?

Monica Lennon

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25516

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I welcome Liam Kerr’s motion and hope that the whole Parliament will back it today. All primary school pupils in Wales and in London have free school meals because that has been made a political priority. Does Liam Kerr agree that the SNP needs to drop the spin and the excuses in its amendment and put the needs of Scotland’s children first?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.6

I absolutely agree with that—it is a good point well made. The amendment is as predictable as it is shameful and, indeed, ignorant. On 5 September, in this chamber, in a rare moment of self-awareness, John Swinney said: “We will not be able, in this parliamentary session, to roll out universal eligibility across primary 6 and primary 7 pupils, because our budget has been eroded by ... fiscal mismanagement”. —[Official Report, 5 September 2024; c12.] Hasn’t it just? The Government is sitting on the largest cash-terms block grant in devolution history and, as Monica Lennon says, it makes choices about how it spends that budget. We should never forget that the Scottish Fiscal Commission said just last week that the SNP’s financial woes are largely the result of its own spending incontinence. Nowhere can I find an official costing for the extension of free school meals. To assist, I have done a very rough calculation. I think that the cost to deliver free school meals for P6 and P7 pupils would be, at worst, around £110 million. In breaking its promise, the Government chooses not to cover that. What choices has the Government made instead? It chose to spend £400 million on ferries, of course. However, no one will forget the figures that were released in July that show that Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP spent more than £180 million on spin doctors, foreign trips and hospitality. By total coincidence, £110 million of that was spent on press officers, social media and internal communications. Just last week, we also heard about the special advisers that have cost millions. There are then the more than 120 ministerial overseas trips that have been made in the past two years alone to more than 30 different destinations, despite foreign affairs being reserved to Westminster. Maybe those trips were made to visit the nine Scottish Government overseas offices, which cost £9 million, or to get away from the £16 million in losses and special payments that have been made by the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. Perhaps they were made to get away from the £82.95 million in last year’s consolidated accounts for losses and special payments. If it is priorities that we are after, some may have missed that Angus Robertson’s budget of £347 million—for the portfolio that covers such things as external affairs and the constitution, which are not actually devolved—was spared the axe in last week’s cull by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. Interestingly for those who worry that £110 million is a lot of money for the Government to find, when Shona Robison was asked why she had not cut that £347 million budget, she said: “It is a small budget by comparison”. By axing the universal roll-out of free school meals in primary schools, the SNP has shamefully betrayed Scotland’s poorest pupils. It has abandoned any pretence that it knows how to eradicate the attainment gap and/or child poverty, and it has played fast and loose with the trust that the people of Scotland invested in it. When, in September 2020, the Scottish Conservatives first pledged to introduce free school meals for all primary school pupils, we were supported by all parties across Parliament, because some things are just more important than party politics. Two months later, John Swinney, who was then the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills, announced that that would be SNP policy. I therefore call on MSPs from all parties to put party politics aside today and send the strongest possible message to the SNP that it cannot—it must not—abandon the young people of Scotland. Let us in this Parliament back the roll-out of free school meals for all primary pupils by voting for the motion in my name. I move, That the Parliament believes that free school lunches should be provided for all primary school children, including provision in the school holidays, in this parliamentary session, as promised by the Scottish Government.

Liam Kerr

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25515

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I absolutely agree with that—it is a good point well made. The amendment is as predictable as it is shameful and, indeed, ignorant. On 5 September, in this chamber, in a rare moment of self-awareness, John Swinney said: “We will not be able, in this parliamentary session, to roll out universal eligibility across primary 6 and primary 7 pupils, because our budget has been eroded by ... fiscal mismanagement”. —[Official Report, 5 September 2024; c12.] Hasn’t it just? The Government is sitting on the largest cash-terms block grant in devolution history and, as Monica Lennon says, it makes choices about how it spends that budget. We should never forget that the Scottish Fiscal Commission said just last week that the SNP’s financial woes are largely the result of its own spending incontinence. Nowhere can I find an official costing for the extension of free school meals. To assist, I have done a very rough calculation. I think that the cost to deliver free school meals for P6 and P7 pupils would be, at worst, around £110 million. In breaking its promise, the Government chooses not to cover that. What choices has the Government made instead? It chose to spend £400 million on ferries, of course. However, no one will forget the figures that were released in July that show that Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP spent more than £180 million on spin doctors, foreign trips and hospitality. By total coincidence, £110 million of that was spent on press officers, social media and internal communications. Just last week, we also heard about the special advisers that have cost millions. There are then the more than 120 ministerial overseas trips that have been made in the past two years alone to more than 30 different destinations, despite foreign affairs being reserved to Westminster. Maybe those trips were made to visit the nine Scottish Government overseas offices, which cost £9 million, or to get away from the £16 million in losses and special payments that have been made by the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. Perhaps they were made to get away from the £82.95 million in last year’s consolidated accounts for losses and special payments. If it is priorities that we are after, some may have missed that Angus Robertson’s budget of £347 million—for the portfolio that covers such things as external affairs and the constitution, which are not actually devolved—was spared the axe in last week’s cull by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. Interestingly for those who worry that £110 million is a lot of money for the Government to find, when Shona Robison was asked why she had not cut that £347 million budget, she said: “It is a small budget by comparison”. By axing the universal roll-out of free school meals in primary schools, the SNP has shamefully betrayed Scotland’s poorest pupils. It has abandoned any pretence that it knows how to eradicate the attainment gap and/or child poverty, and it has played fast and loose with the trust that the people of Scotland invested in it. When, in September 2020, the Scottish Conservatives first pledged to introduce free school meals for all primary school pupils, we were supported by all parties across Parliament, because some things are just more important than party politics. Two months later, John Swinney, who was then the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills, announced that that would be SNP policy. I therefore call on MSPs from all parties to put party politics aside today and send the strongest possible message to the SNP that it cannot—it must not—abandon the young people of Scotland. Let us in this Parliament back the roll-out of free school meals for all primary pupils by voting for the motion in my name. I move, That the Parliament believes that free school lunches should be provided for all primary school children, including provision in the school holidays, in this parliamentary session, as promised by the Scottish Government.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.7

I call Jenny Gilruth to speak to and move amendment S6M-14406.3.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I call Jenny Gilruth to speak to and move amendment S6M-14406.3.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.8

Last night, I met the world schools debating champions at Bute house. Team Scotland was represented by Portobello high school, St Columba’s high school from Kilmacolm, Broxburn academy and Dollar academy. As education secretary, I put on the record my congratulations to them on their success, and I am sure that the Parliament sends them our best wishes, too. Liam Kerr said that some things are more important than party politics, and I agree. Last night, I told the young people about the topic at hand for today’s debate. I explained that it would be a challenging day for the Government, because we do not disagree on the principle of the motion that is in front of us. As the motion recounts, in the 2021 election, the SNP committed to delivering universal free school meals. Today, I want to put on record our recommitment to that delivery because, as a politician, I believe emphatically in the principle of universality and, as a teacher, I know that hungry children cannot learn. The amendment in my name seeks to provide the necessary financial context to the situation that we find ourselves in. Let us be in no doubt that more children in Scotland today are receiving free school meals thanks to the Scottish Government: every child in primaries 1 to 5, those in special schools, as well as all eligible pupils from primary 6 right up to secondary 6. Free school meal provision in Scotland is saving families on average £400 per child per year. In total, Scottish Government funding is providing free school meals to more than 270,000 children every single year from primaries 1 to 5. We are now focusing our efforts on pupils who are in receipt of the Scottish child payment, which will see an additional 26,000 children benefit. However, I understand the deep disappointment that universal roll-out to primaries 6 and 7 has been delayed and, frankly, I share that disappointment. It is in that spirit that I will listen to and engage with the Opposition today. Only last week, Parliament heard from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government the full extent of the budgetary challenges that the Scottish Government faces. As Sir Keir Starmer has stated on the issue of free school meals, “The money is a big factor, I won’t shy away from it.” The Prime Minister is right. Of course, it is a painful matter of fact that, under the current devolution settlement, in the absence of any clarity on additional consequentials, any emerging in-year costs have to be funded by cuts elsewhere.

The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25506

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

Last night, I met the world schools debating champions at Bute house. Team Scotland was represented by Portobello high school, St Columba’s high school from Kilmacolm, Broxburn academy and Dollar academy. As education secretary, I put on the record my congratulations to them on their success, and I am sure that the Parliament sends them our best wishes, too. Liam Kerr said that some things are more important than party politics, and I agree. Last night, I told the young people about the topic at hand for today’s debate. I explained that it would be a challenging day for the Government, because we do not disagree on the principle of the motion that is in front of us. As the motion recounts, in the 2021 election, the SNP committed to delivering universal free school meals. Today, I want to put on record our recommitment to that delivery because, as a politician, I believe emphatically in the principle of universality and, as a teacher, I know that hungry children cannot learn. The amendment in my name seeks to provide the necessary financial context to the situation that we find ourselves in. Let us be in no doubt that more children in Scotland today are receiving free school meals thanks to the Scottish Government: every child in primaries 1 to 5, those in special schools, as well as all eligible pupils from primary 6 right up to secondary 6. Free school meal provision in Scotland is saving families on average £400 per child per year. In total, Scottish Government funding is providing free school meals to more than 270,000 children every single year from primaries 1 to 5. We are now focusing our efforts on pupils who are in receipt of the Scottish child payment, which will see an additional 26,000 children benefit. However, I understand the deep disappointment that universal roll-out to primaries 6 and 7 has been delayed and, frankly, I share that disappointment. It is in that spirit that I will listen to and engage with the Opposition today. Only last week, Parliament heard from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government the full extent of the budgetary challenges that the Scottish Government faces. As Sir Keir Starmer has stated on the issue of free school meals, “The money is a big factor, I won’t shy away from it.” The Prime Minister is right. Of course, it is a painful matter of fact that, under the current devolution settlement, in the absence of any clarity on additional consequentials, any emerging in-year costs have to be funded by cuts elsewhere.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.9

I share the cabinet secretary’s deep disappointment in the Scottish Government’s decisions, but can she help us to understand what representations she made to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to say, “Don’t take it out of my budget”?

Liam Kerr

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25515

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I share the cabinet secretary’s deep disappointment in the Scottish Government’s decisions, but can she help us to understand what representations she made to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to say, “Don’t take it out of my budget”?

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.10

I made strong representations to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. If the member is interested, he can speak to her directly about that. We are in a Parliament of minorities, and this next question is not really one that is reserved for the First Minister or for me as education secretary. How do we fund the approximate £256 million funding gap that I am presented with in order to deliver universality in this parliamentary session? Right now, the Government simply does not have the resources to deliver that, so I want to hear alternatives for where I should draw the additionality that I need.

Jenny Gilruth

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25506

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I made strong representations to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. If the member is interested, he can speak to her directly about that. We are in a Parliament of minorities, and this next question is not really one that is reserved for the First Minister or for me as education secretary. How do we fund the approximate £256 million funding gap that I am presented with in order to deliver universality in this parliamentary session? Right now, the Government simply does not have the resources to deliver that, so I want to hear alternatives for where I should draw the additionality that I need.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.11

Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25994

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.12

Pam Duncan-Glancy is attempting to make an intervention. I am conscious of time, and I would like to make progress, but I am going to name Pam Duncan-Glancy, because she has reassured me over Twitter that the cavalry is en route. However, I cannot accept a tweet from Ms Duncan-Glancy as confirmation of the extent of the consequentials that Scotland will receive from London. Those who hold the purse strings have offered me no such confirmation. Liam Kerr quoted the Scottish Fiscal Commission. It has noted that there is “significant uncertainty” on the level of funding that we will receive from the UK Government ahead of the UK Government’s budget on 30 October. I would welcome confirmation today from any Labour MSP in the chamber on the totality of consequentials that they expect to flow to Scotland from the new UK Labour Government. As I referenced earlier, we know that the combined capital and revenue costs of universal expansion will total £256 million. My question to Parliament, and particularly to the Labour Party, is simple: where would you find the money? Like its friends in the Conservative Party, the Labour Party has opposed just about every revenue-raising measure that the Government has put in place. Just like the Tories, Labour seek to slash taxes on higher earners, leaving us with less money to invest in our public services. What is the answer? If members want to commit to the immediate universal expansion in primary schools, which the Scottish Futures Trust’s independent research estimates will cost £256 million, what £256 million of cuts would they make? Would they make cuts elsewhere in our schools, such as to additional support needs provision, the school clothing grant or the Scottish attainment challenge? Would Labour stop funding to the eight new schools that are being built? Would it make cuts elsewhere? Would it make cuts to the national health service, childcare or the Scottish child payment, or would it do what it has been desperate to do since 2007 and reimpose tuition fees on Scottish students?

Jenny Gilruth

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25506

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

Pam Duncan-Glancy is attempting to make an intervention. I am conscious of time, and I would like to make progress, but I am going to name Pam Duncan-Glancy, because she has reassured me over Twitter that the cavalry is en route. However, I cannot accept a tweet from Ms Duncan-Glancy as confirmation of the extent of the consequentials that Scotland will receive from London. Those who hold the purse strings have offered me no such confirmation. Liam Kerr quoted the Scottish Fiscal Commission. It has noted that there is “significant uncertainty” on the level of funding that we will receive from the UK Government ahead of the UK Government’s budget on 30 October. I would welcome confirmation today from any Labour MSP in the chamber on the totality of consequentials that they expect to flow to Scotland from the new UK Labour Government. As I referenced earlier, we know that the combined capital and revenue costs of universal expansion will total £256 million. My question to Parliament, and particularly to the Labour Party, is simple: where would you find the money? Like its friends in the Conservative Party, the Labour Party has opposed just about every revenue-raising measure that the Government has put in place. Just like the Tories, Labour seek to slash taxes on higher earners, leaving us with less money to invest in our public services. What is the answer? If members want to commit to the immediate universal expansion in primary schools, which the Scottish Futures Trust’s independent research estimates will cost £256 million, what £256 million of cuts would they make? Would they make cuts elsewhere in our schools, such as to additional support needs provision, the school clothing grant or the Scottish attainment challenge? Would Labour stop funding to the eight new schools that are being built? Would it make cuts elsewhere? Would it make cuts to the national health service, childcare or the Scottish child payment, or would it do what it has been desperate to do since 2007 and reimpose tuition fees on Scottish students?

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.13

You need to conclude, cabinet secretary.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

You need to conclude, cabinet secretary.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.14

The reality is that austerity is a political choice. It matters not one iota whether it is red or blue. The result is less money for Scotland, less money for education and less money for our children. In a Parliament of minorities, it is incumbent on the Government to engage with the Opposition on the facts, so I will listen today with the interests of Scotland’s children and young people at the forefront of my mind. I move amendment S6M-14406.3, to insert at end: “; notes, however, that the impact of the austerity agenda pursued by the previous Conservative and current Labour UK administrations has reduced the value of Scotland’s budget, meaning that the required combined capital and revenue funding of £256 million is not available to deliver fully during the current parliamentary session; recommits the Scottish Government to full universal delivery for all primary pupils when the budgetary position allows; recognises the progress that has already been made with the delivery of free school meals to all children in P1 to P5, special schools, as well as eligible pupils in P6 to S6; welcomes that the Scottish Government will now make further progress with expansion to P6 and P7 pupils in receipt of the Scottish Child Payment, which will see an additional 26,000 children benefit, and calls on the UK Government to change its fiscal rules to end austerity and allow increased investment in public services to eradicate child poverty.”

Jenny Gilruth

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25506

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

The reality is that austerity is a political choice. It matters not one iota whether it is red or blue. The result is less money for Scotland, less money for education and less money for our children. In a Parliament of minorities, it is incumbent on the Government to engage with the Opposition on the facts, so I will listen today with the interests of Scotland’s children and young people at the forefront of my mind. I move amendment S6M-14406.3, to insert at end: “; notes, however, that the impact of the austerity agenda pursued by the previous Conservative and current Labour UK administrations has reduced the value of Scotland’s budget, meaning that the required combined capital and revenue funding of £256 million is not available to deliver fully during the current parliamentary session; recommits the Scottish Government to full universal delivery for all primary pupils when the budgetary position allows; recognises the progress that has already been made with the delivery of free school meals to all children in P1 to P5, special schools, as well as eligible pupils in P6 to S6; welcomes that the Scottish Government will now make further progress with expansion to P6 and P7 pupils in receipt of the Scottish Child Payment, which will see an additional 26,000 children benefit, and calls on the UK Government to change its fiscal rules to end austerity and allow increased investment in public services to eradicate child poverty.”

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.15

I am pleased to open on behalf of Scottish Labour in the debate and to speak in support of the motion and the amendment in my name. I have said this before, but it is worth repeating: education is a great leveller. It can smash the glass, class and step ceilings in the way of opportunity, and any barrier to its full potential and power is a barrier to that opportunity for Scotland’s young people. However, sadly, with its litany of broken promises and incompetence in delivery, one such barrier to opportunity in Scotland is the SNP Scottish Government. The Government has now promised but not delivered free school meals for every primary school pupil for four years. Although child poverty is stagnant on its watch, people across Scotland will be baffled at the choices that it has made. Experts are, too. The Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland said: “Any rollback or dilution … can only be seen as a broken promise”. The Child Poverty Action Group said that the Government is “falling behind in … actions that” it “has already committed to and that families so desperately need.” Children 1st said that it is “deeply concerned that the drastic cuts to public spending will throw many children and families already in crisis over the edge”. It is not just lunches; it is breakfasts, too. As the chief executive of Magic Breakfast pointed out last week, “Despite being the minister who announced it, John Swinney is now the third First Minister in a row to exclude ... universal breakfast provision from their Programme for Government.” Alone, broken promises to young people on food would be bad enough—but they are not alone. In 2007, the SNP promised to cut class sizes to 18. It abandoned that promise in 2009 and primary classes have not been below 23 while it has been in power. The SNP manifesto in 2021 promised an increase in the number of teachers and classroom assistants. Teacher numbers have fallen and, in Glasgow alone, against the Parliament’s will, 450 might go. The same manifesto promised to reduce contact time for teachers, but a recent Government-commissioned report found that it will not do that, either. It does not stop there. Pledging to end the digital divide, John Swinney announced in 2021-22 that every child in Scotland would get a digital device. That commitment was dropped this year. Then there are the free bikes. This year, Transport Scotland confirmed that just over 6,000 bikes have gone out to the approximately 250,000 children who are in poverty. On 11 June, the First Minister said that, where families have free school meal debt, we have written that off, but families are still being pursued and the Government cannot tell us how many families have had their debts written off. Thousands of Scotland’s children and young people who were promised all of that by the Government have now left school. That matters not only because people are sick of being promised stuff that they do not get but because broken promises to young people impact education and stifle opportunity. Because of the SNP’s litany of broken promises and incompetence, attainment is down and the gap is up. Fewer young people are in jobs, education or training after leaving school.

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25994

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I am pleased to open on behalf of Scottish Labour in the debate and to speak in support of the motion and the amendment in my name. I have said this before, but it is worth repeating: education is a great leveller. It can smash the glass, class and step ceilings in the way of opportunity, and any barrier to its full potential and power is a barrier to that opportunity for Scotland’s young people. However, sadly, with its litany of broken promises and incompetence in delivery, one such barrier to opportunity in Scotland is the SNP Scottish Government. The Government has now promised but not delivered free school meals for every primary school pupil for four years. Although child poverty is stagnant on its watch, people across Scotland will be baffled at the choices that it has made. Experts are, too. The Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland said: “Any rollback or dilution … can only be seen as a broken promise”. The Child Poverty Action Group said that the Government is “falling behind in … actions that” it “has already committed to and that families so desperately need.” Children 1st said that it is “deeply concerned that the drastic cuts to public spending will throw many children and families already in crisis over the edge”. It is not just lunches; it is breakfasts, too. As the chief executive of Magic Breakfast pointed out last week, “Despite being the minister who announced it, John Swinney is now the third First Minister in a row to exclude ... universal breakfast provision from their Programme for Government.” Alone, broken promises to young people on food would be bad enough—but they are not alone. In 2007, the SNP promised to cut class sizes to 18. It abandoned that promise in 2009 and primary classes have not been below 23 while it has been in power. The SNP manifesto in 2021 promised an increase in the number of teachers and classroom assistants. Teacher numbers have fallen and, in Glasgow alone, against the Parliament’s will, 450 might go. The same manifesto promised to reduce contact time for teachers, but a recent Government-commissioned report found that it will not do that, either. It does not stop there. Pledging to end the digital divide, John Swinney announced in 2021-22 that every child in Scotland would get a digital device. That commitment was dropped this year. Then there are the free bikes. This year, Transport Scotland confirmed that just over 6,000 bikes have gone out to the approximately 250,000 children who are in poverty. On 11 June, the First Minister said that, where families have free school meal debt, we have written that off, but families are still being pursued and the Government cannot tell us how many families have had their debts written off. Thousands of Scotland’s children and young people who were promised all of that by the Government have now left school. That matters not only because people are sick of being promised stuff that they do not get but because broken promises to young people impact education and stifle opportunity. Because of the SNP’s litany of broken promises and incompetence, attainment is down and the gap is up. Fewer young people are in jobs, education or training after leaving school.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.16

Will Pam Duncan-Glancy give way?

Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25114

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

Will Pam Duncan-Glancy give way?

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.17

I am sorry, I do not have time. Young people from the most disadvantaged backgrounds are five times more likely to be unemployed. Those are not just numbers: they are young people denied opportunity. Scotland’s once world-renowned education system is on its knees after 17 years of the Government’s mismanagement, and the SNP cannot keep blaming someone else. I find the Government’s amendment and the speech from the cabinet secretary to be tiresome. People watching are tired of the Government’s excuses for not delivering the things that it said that it would deliver. The SNP can point the fingers all it likes, but people in Scotland see the missed opportunities for reducing child poverty and the incompetence and waste that cost us £5 billion and they can hear the experts when they tell the Government that that is because of its own spending decisions. It is clear that the path to change does not and cannot lie with this incompetent SNP Government. It must fall to Labour members, who are already delivering, to reduce poverty through a new deal for working people, create jobs in GB Energy and improve finances for working people. That is the change that Scotland needs, that is the change that young people deserve and that is the change that we will deliver. I move amendment S6M-14406.2, to insert at end: “, and regrets the Scottish National Party administration’s repeated broken promises to Scotland’s children and young people.”

Pam Duncan-Glancy

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25994

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I am sorry, I do not have time. Young people from the most disadvantaged backgrounds are five times more likely to be unemployed. Those are not just numbers: they are young people denied opportunity. Scotland’s once world-renowned education system is on its knees after 17 years of the Government’s mismanagement, and the SNP cannot keep blaming someone else. I find the Government’s amendment and the speech from the cabinet secretary to be tiresome. People watching are tired of the Government’s excuses for not delivering the things that it said that it would deliver. The SNP can point the fingers all it likes, but people in Scotland see the missed opportunities for reducing child poverty and the incompetence and waste that cost us £5 billion and they can hear the experts when they tell the Government that that is because of its own spending decisions. It is clear that the path to change does not and cannot lie with this incompetent SNP Government. It must fall to Labour members, who are already delivering, to reduce poverty through a new deal for working people, create jobs in GB Energy and improve finances for working people. That is the change that Scotland needs, that is the change that young people deserve and that is the change that we will deliver. I move amendment S6M-14406.2, to insert at end: “, and regrets the Scottish National Party administration’s repeated broken promises to Scotland’s children and young people.”

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.18

I should start by thanking the Conservatives, not just for using some of their time this afternoon to debate free school meals, but because the topics of their debates are a defence of green policies from the Bute house agreement era. I am delighted that, having spent so long trying to bring down the Bute house agreement, our Conservative colleagues are now the first to defend the legacy of the Greens in Government. I will try to be collegiate, but I need to start by making the point that there is more than a whiff of hypocrisy in the Conservatives talking about ways in which we can tackle child poverty. The single biggest driver of child poverty in modern British history is the Conservative Party and the decisions that it has made, whether it be introducing the two-child cap, slashing universal credit or decimating public services. They cannot pick and choose when they want to lift children out of poverty and when they want to push more children into it without accusations of hypocrisy being flung at them. On that point of collegiality and consensus, I want to talk about a visit in the previous parliamentary session that Oliver Mundell and I and some other colleagues made to multiple schools in Finland, which has had universal free school meals for some time. It was an experience that we all gained a great deal from. We saw almost every pupil sitting together and staying in school at lunch time for a healthy, warm, free meal. That did a whole range of things. It tackled inequality and helped those families who needed it and who would have struggled with paying for school meals. It improved attainment, because hungry children struggle to learn and behave. It eliminated stigma, because we know that, even with the best will in the world and with the most subtle systems of means testing and entitlement, children can find out who is and is not entitled to a free school meal. Even if they do not find out, those children who are entitled under our current system are worried about people—even members of staff—knowing that their family’s situation means that they are entitled. No one misses out under a universal system. The Finland system also increases social cohesion, because, as we saw, all children eat together, including the children of families who can afford to pay for meals but who otherwise would have probably gone out of school at lunchtime. A very different culture is created as a result of universal provision. Finland is the gold standard. It is all the proof and all the evidence that we need that universal provision works. It is outrageous that, here in Scotland and across the UK, we have children sitting in school hungry in one of the richest countries in the history of the planet. I am proud that, during the final budget agreement of the previous parliamentary session, just a few weeks before the pandemic brought a lot to a halt, the Scottish Greens managed to secure the Government’s agreement to immediately expand universal provision of free school meals to primary 4 and 5 and then move on to primary 6 and 7. That was part of a wider package that we worked on together with colleagues in the SNP to do things such as cancel school meal debt. The Scottish Greens were the first to uncover the scale of school meal debt in Scotland. We did the research, we campaigned and then, with the support of the cabinet secretary and the then First Minister, Humza Yousaf, we secured funding to cancel that debt. This afternoon’s debate is a bit odd, because we are debating something that we all agree on. The real question is about money. I agree with Liam Kerr that it is a question of priorities, although his priorities and mine are very different. I believe that the Greens have proposals for making the scheme financially affordable. For a start, there are ways of minimising costs using shared catering facilities and timetabling. The problem that I have with the Government’s amendment is that it presents, quite rightly, the scale of austerity delivered by the Conservative Party—and not reversed by the Labour Party—as a challenge. However, it then makes out that that challenge makes austerity inevitable. It is not inevitable. There are a range of ways in which the Scottish Government can save money in-year in this financial year. On the capital side, we would freeze spending on trunk roads and motorway expansion. On the revenue side, we would scale back on tax breaks for shooting estates, for example. It is a question of political choice. I want to hear more about the choices that all colleagues would make this afternoon if we genuinely had a consensus on the priority of delivering the policy.

Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25509

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I should start by thanking the Conservatives, not just for using some of their time this afternoon to debate free school meals, but because the topics of their debates are a defence of green policies from the Bute house agreement era. I am delighted that, having spent so long trying to bring down the Bute house agreement, our Conservative colleagues are now the first to defend the legacy of the Greens in Government. I will try to be collegiate, but I need to start by making the point that there is more than a whiff of hypocrisy in the Conservatives talking about ways in which we can tackle child poverty. The single biggest driver of child poverty in modern British history is the Conservative Party and the decisions that it has made, whether it be introducing the two-child cap, slashing universal credit or decimating public services. They cannot pick and choose when they want to lift children out of poverty and when they want to push more children into it without accusations of hypocrisy being flung at them. On that point of collegiality and consensus, I want to talk about a visit in the previous parliamentary session that Oliver Mundell and I and some other colleagues made to multiple schools in Finland, which has had universal free school meals for some time. It was an experience that we all gained a great deal from. We saw almost every pupil sitting together and staying in school at lunch time for a healthy, warm, free meal. That did a whole range of things. It tackled inequality and helped those families who needed it and who would have struggled with paying for school meals. It improved attainment, because hungry children struggle to learn and behave. It eliminated stigma, because we know that, even with the best will in the world and with the most subtle systems of means testing and entitlement, children can find out who is and is not entitled to a free school meal. Even if they do not find out, those children who are entitled under our current system are worried about people—even members of staff—knowing that their family’s situation means that they are entitled. No one misses out under a universal system. The Finland system also increases social cohesion, because, as we saw, all children eat together, including the children of families who can afford to pay for meals but who otherwise would have probably gone out of school at lunchtime. A very different culture is created as a result of universal provision. Finland is the gold standard. It is all the proof and all the evidence that we need that universal provision works. It is outrageous that, here in Scotland and across the UK, we have children sitting in school hungry in one of the richest countries in the history of the planet. I am proud that, during the final budget agreement of the previous parliamentary session, just a few weeks before the pandemic brought a lot to a halt, the Scottish Greens managed to secure the Government’s agreement to immediately expand universal provision of free school meals to primary 4 and 5 and then move on to primary 6 and 7. That was part of a wider package that we worked on together with colleagues in the SNP to do things such as cancel school meal debt. The Scottish Greens were the first to uncover the scale of school meal debt in Scotland. We did the research, we campaigned and then, with the support of the cabinet secretary and the then First Minister, Humza Yousaf, we secured funding to cancel that debt. This afternoon’s debate is a bit odd, because we are debating something that we all agree on. The real question is about money. I agree with Liam Kerr that it is a question of priorities, although his priorities and mine are very different. I believe that the Greens have proposals for making the scheme financially affordable. For a start, there are ways of minimising costs using shared catering facilities and timetabling. The problem that I have with the Government’s amendment is that it presents, quite rightly, the scale of austerity delivered by the Conservative Party—and not reversed by the Labour Party—as a challenge. However, it then makes out that that challenge makes austerity inevitable. It is not inevitable. There are a range of ways in which the Scottish Government can save money in-year in this financial year. On the capital side, we would freeze spending on trunk roads and motorway expansion. On the revenue side, we would scale back on tax breaks for shooting estates, for example. It is a question of political choice. I want to hear more about the choices that all colleagues would make this afternoon if we genuinely had a consensus on the priority of delivering the policy.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.19

Marcus Rashford made a big impact on this whole debate in 2020 and before that. He has left a lasting legacy that has been credited, quite rightly, across the United Kingdom. At that point, the SNP was a victim of its own spin and approach to politics. It is now still a victim as a result. At the time, John Swinney sought to exploit that campaign and to draw a difference between the Conservative Government at Westminster and the Scottish Government. He said that hunger “doesn’t take a holiday” and that every child, every minute and every school day are incredibly important for learning. He committed the SNP to delivering that promise by August 2022—two years ago—but it is clear that the SNP did not have a costed plan. It was evident from almost the point that the SNP agreed that commitment and put it in its manifesto that it was retreating from it. Initially, the SNP blamed local authorities for being unable to deliver the commitment in 2022, then it blamed the Westminster Government, and now it is blaming the Labour Government, even though it has been in power for only a few weeks, as opposed to the 17 years for which the SNP has been in government. The SNP hunted around almost from the very beginning for an explanation and an excuse for its failure to deliver the solemn promise that it put in its manifesto in 2021. It was clear at that point that the SNP refused to accept that there was a looming financial crisis at the heart of the Scottish Government, which successive finance committees and the Scottish Fiscal Commission have been telling us about for years, and it made endless promises, jumping on the headlines that had been created—quite rightly—by Marcus Rashford, but doing so without having a costed plan. I have no problem with the Government meeting the needs and desires of the electorate, but it must be honest and straightforward from the very beginning, rather than using such promises as election gimmicks. Today, the education secretary has challenged us to say where we would find the money. If she had been at last week’s meeting of the Education, Children and Young People Committee, she would know the answer to that, because Graeme Dey knows exactly where all the money is. Apparently, he has worked it all out. He made an agreement with the college unions across the country, and he told us that he did not have a clue where the finance was going to come from. I suspect that he knows everything about the finances of the Scottish Government and that he has the money tucked up his sleeve. Therefore, all that the education secretary needs to do is to reach over to Graeme Dey, who will have the answer to everything. We will take no lectures from the SNP about the need to say where we would find the money, because it plays that trick against the Opposition every single time. The Government knows the finances back to front. If it did not, why did the SNP make that promise in 2021? Surely it would have had a costed plan that was worked out over the years. Surely it would have known that the Conservatives were going to have austerity for years and that the successive Labour Government was going to be dreadful. Surely it had worked all that out before it made that promise. However, we know that it had not, because it has played fast and loose with Scotland’s public finances by making endless promises that it simply cannot keep. Today, the education secretary faces a challenge, because it is clear from what my colleague Ross Greer said, and from what Conservative and Labour members and I have said, that all of us will vote against the Government’s amendment, so she will lose. She must decide how she will respond to the will of Parliament, because the will of Parliament is incredibly important, as we have heard from her bosses—previous First Ministers—over many years. We would expect the Government to make a statement on how it will meet that promise—

Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25111

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

Marcus Rashford made a big impact on this whole debate in 2020 and before that. He has left a lasting legacy that has been credited, quite rightly, across the United Kingdom. At that point, the SNP was a victim of its own spin and approach to politics. It is now still a victim as a result. At the time, John Swinney sought to exploit that campaign and to draw a difference between the Conservative Government at Westminster and the Scottish Government. He said that hunger “doesn’t take a holiday” and that every child, every minute and every school day are incredibly important for learning. He committed the SNP to delivering that promise by August 2022—two years ago—but it is clear that the SNP did not have a costed plan. It was evident from almost the point that the SNP agreed that commitment and put it in its manifesto that it was retreating from it. Initially, the SNP blamed local authorities for being unable to deliver the commitment in 2022, then it blamed the Westminster Government, and now it is blaming the Labour Government, even though it has been in power for only a few weeks, as opposed to the 17 years for which the SNP has been in government. The SNP hunted around almost from the very beginning for an explanation and an excuse for its failure to deliver the solemn promise that it put in its manifesto in 2021. It was clear at that point that the SNP refused to accept that there was a looming financial crisis at the heart of the Scottish Government, which successive finance committees and the Scottish Fiscal Commission have been telling us about for years, and it made endless promises, jumping on the headlines that had been created—quite rightly—by Marcus Rashford, but doing so without having a costed plan. I have no problem with the Government meeting the needs and desires of the electorate, but it must be honest and straightforward from the very beginning, rather than using such promises as election gimmicks. Today, the education secretary has challenged us to say where we would find the money. If she had been at last week’s meeting of the Education, Children and Young People Committee, she would know the answer to that, because Graeme Dey knows exactly where all the money is. Apparently, he has worked it all out. He made an agreement with the college unions across the country, and he told us that he did not have a clue where the finance was going to come from. I suspect that he knows everything about the finances of the Scottish Government and that he has the money tucked up his sleeve. Therefore, all that the education secretary needs to do is to reach over to Graeme Dey, who will have the answer to everything. We will take no lectures from the SNP about the need to say where we would find the money, because it plays that trick against the Opposition every single time. The Government knows the finances back to front. If it did not, why did the SNP make that promise in 2021? Surely it would have had a costed plan that was worked out over the years. Surely it would have known that the Conservatives were going to have austerity for years and that the successive Labour Government was going to be dreadful. Surely it had worked all that out before it made that promise. However, we know that it had not, because it has played fast and loose with Scotland’s public finances by making endless promises that it simply cannot keep. Today, the education secretary faces a challenge, because it is clear from what my colleague Ross Greer said, and from what Conservative and Labour members and I have said, that all of us will vote against the Government’s amendment, so she will lose. She must decide how she will respond to the will of Parliament, because the will of Parliament is incredibly important, as we have heard from her bosses—previous First Ministers—over many years. We would expect the Government to make a statement on how it will meet that promise—

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.20

You need to conclude.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

You need to conclude.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.21

It is not only our promise; it is the Government’s promise, and it is for the Government to deliver it. We deserve an answer from the Government today.

Willie Rennie

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25111

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

It is not only our promise; it is the Government’s promise, and it is for the Government to deliver it. We deserve an answer from the Government today.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.22

We move to the open debate.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

We move to the open debate.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.23

I declare an interest in that my eldest daughter is a teacher. She is head of guidance as well as being a physical education teacher. When I came into Parliament, I led with the statement that I thought that education was the solution to our health and welfare problems, and I believe that even more now. In fact, as I have said in the chamber many times, I think that education should be the cornerstone of every portfolio. However, the biggest disappointment that I have experienced in this Parliament has been the Scottish Government’s failure to drive the changes in education and health that it could have made, given that those portfolios are entirely within the Scottish Government’s control. It could have been bold, taken its own path and delivered solutions to some of the country’s biggest issues, but it has seemed content to stumble along behind the crumbling excuse, “It’s not our fault.” The Government’s usual fallback position is, “We need more money,” but here is the thing. If you invest in education, you are investing in health, justice, welfare and the economy—the economy that is required to pay for all the services that we need. We need to define the issues we are trying to address. In education, those are poor physical and mental health, declining behavioural standards, declining attendance and the attainment gap, as well as hunger and malnutrition. Today, we are talking about free school meals for all primary school children. If we are tackling malnutrition and hunger for children coming into school, why are we not talking about free school breakfasts? Logic tells me that that is the meal that we should be targeting, although I am not against also having free school lunches for those children from the most deprived areas. If we want the uptake of free school meals to improve and the queues outside the chip shop to go down, we need to offer pupils more reasons to be in school. I have put forward the idea of offering some kind of activity prior to the start of the school day that happens to have breakfast included and of offering extracurricular activities at lunchtime to keep children in school and active. Those initiatives would tackle all the issues that I previously highlighted and the costs associated with them. The Scottish Government’s approach is one of crisis management rather than tackling the long-term needs of our educational environment. It has been funding increases in salary by cutting support staff and reneging on a manifesto promise of free school meals.

Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25543

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I declare an interest in that my eldest daughter is a teacher. She is head of guidance as well as being a physical education teacher. When I came into Parliament, I led with the statement that I thought that education was the solution to our health and welfare problems, and I believe that even more now. In fact, as I have said in the chamber many times, I think that education should be the cornerstone of every portfolio. However, the biggest disappointment that I have experienced in this Parliament has been the Scottish Government’s failure to drive the changes in education and health that it could have made, given that those portfolios are entirely within the Scottish Government’s control. It could have been bold, taken its own path and delivered solutions to some of the country’s biggest issues, but it has seemed content to stumble along behind the crumbling excuse, “It’s not our fault.” The Government’s usual fallback position is, “We need more money,” but here is the thing. If you invest in education, you are investing in health, justice, welfare and the economy—the economy that is required to pay for all the services that we need. We need to define the issues we are trying to address. In education, those are poor physical and mental health, declining behavioural standards, declining attendance and the attainment gap, as well as hunger and malnutrition. Today, we are talking about free school meals for all primary school children. If we are tackling malnutrition and hunger for children coming into school, why are we not talking about free school breakfasts? Logic tells me that that is the meal that we should be targeting, although I am not against also having free school lunches for those children from the most deprived areas. If we want the uptake of free school meals to improve and the queues outside the chip shop to go down, we need to offer pupils more reasons to be in school. I have put forward the idea of offering some kind of activity prior to the start of the school day that happens to have breakfast included and of offering extracurricular activities at lunchtime to keep children in school and active. Those initiatives would tackle all the issues that I previously highlighted and the costs associated with them. The Scottish Government’s approach is one of crisis management rather than tackling the long-term needs of our educational environment. It has been funding increases in salary by cutting support staff and reneging on a manifesto promise of free school meals.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.24

Will the member take an intervention?

Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25993

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

Will the member take an intervention?

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.25

I am afraid that I do not have time. Ploughing that furrow simply digs a deeper and deeper hole for our educators, heaping ever more responsibility on to our already stretched teachers. It is increasingly obvious that, in SNP Scotland, if a pupil is not academically inclined, school offers less and less for them. Sport, art, music and drama are all in decline despite all the mental and physical health benefits that they deliver. Now, the SNP wants to cut back on school meal provision. It is a false economy. It will disincentivise pupils further, leading to more absenteeism, unhealthier pupils, poorer behaviour and a widening attainment gap. The biggest inequality is the inequality of opportunity, and this decision by the SNP Government is just another element of that inequality. Instead of its delivering the rounded education that we desire, we see short-termism that will just hand on the problems to the next Government. At some point, we need to halt the continuous decline in our public sector and recognise that, by getting education right, we can start tackling all the other crises that the SNP has presided over. Education used to be the SNP’s number 1 priority. Unfortunately, when it failed to deliver on that pledge, it just moved on to another of its priorities, leaving our education system much worse off than when it inherited it. The Opposition parties might not agree with some of the solutions that I have put forward, and that is perfectly acceptable—as long as they come up with their own solutions. However, as we know, the SNP’s solution is inevitably yet another consultation that leads to yet more inaction. It will not do. Cutting school meals is yet another symptom of a Scottish Government without a clue.

Brian Whittle

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25543

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I am afraid that I do not have time. Ploughing that furrow simply digs a deeper and deeper hole for our educators, heaping ever more responsibility on to our already stretched teachers. It is increasingly obvious that, in SNP Scotland, if a pupil is not academically inclined, school offers less and less for them. Sport, art, music and drama are all in decline despite all the mental and physical health benefits that they deliver. Now, the SNP wants to cut back on school meal provision. It is a false economy. It will disincentivise pupils further, leading to more absenteeism, unhealthier pupils, poorer behaviour and a widening attainment gap. The biggest inequality is the inequality of opportunity, and this decision by the SNP Government is just another element of that inequality. Instead of its delivering the rounded education that we desire, we see short-termism that will just hand on the problems to the next Government. At some point, we need to halt the continuous decline in our public sector and recognise that, by getting education right, we can start tackling all the other crises that the SNP has presided over. Education used to be the SNP’s number 1 priority. Unfortunately, when it failed to deliver on that pledge, it just moved on to another of its priorities, leaving our education system much worse off than when it inherited it. The Opposition parties might not agree with some of the solutions that I have put forward, and that is perfectly acceptable—as long as they come up with their own solutions. However, as we know, the SNP’s solution is inevitably yet another consultation that leads to yet more inaction. It will not do. Cutting school meals is yet another symptom of a Scottish Government without a clue.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.26

I find myself back on the back benches, freed from the shackles of Government, able to say what I really mean and what I really want to say. However, you are all gonnae be extremely disappointed, because sometimes I find Opposition business extremely tedious. Here we have the classic attempt by them to get that “gotcha” moment, talk down the Government and offer no ideas about delivery or what they would do. The Presiding Officer will remember that we used to discuss the big ideas here, during all parts of this chamber’s business. We used to talk about them all the time—but no longer. It now seems to be about a very simple “gotcha” and trying to get the next headline from the Opposition parties. Liam Kerr said that we should “put party politics aside”. I would quite gladly do that. If people genuinely want to work with me and others in the SNP to make a difference to young people’s lives, I would say, “Let’s go for it.” However, he made the most partisan political speech that I have heard for some time. Free school meals are there to support many families who are struggling. I am happy to work with the Government and others to achieve all our ambitions on school meals. This is more than just an academic discussion for me, given my background. My family are from Feegie—which, for theOfficial Report, is Ferguslie Park, in Paisley. It is an area that has had its challenges with poverty over the years, and that is what this is all about. I am here to represent the people of Paisley and the people I grew up with. Like other parts of Scotland, Ferguslie Park, in Paisley, has had to deal with those challenges with little support from successive UK Governments. The Scottish Government has invested to support those families as much as it can. A perfect example of that is the £400 million-worth of measures such as the Scottish child payment that have brought 100,000 children out of poverty. The Scottish Government has had to focus on those things while dealing with the constraints of the Westminster settlement. The problem is that the Scottish Government cannot keep propping up continually failing UK Governments. As I have stated, our on-going challenge in Scotland is that we have been continually hampered by successive UK Governments. I am sure that, with the full powers of independence, we could change all of our children’s futures for the better and move away from 14 years of Westminster failure on top of decade after decade of Westminster failure. Keir Starmer has been in office for two weeks and has chucked it already. He says that things can only get worse, but the Scottish National Party’s vision is greater than that. When Westminster says, “The game’s a bogey; we might as well chuck it,” we offer hope. We want to empower the people of Scotland to make their own decisions on the future. Even with the devolution settlement, the SNP has managed to bring 100,000 children out of poverty while the Tories, Labour and Westminster accelerate further austerity. I am here to represent the great town of Paisley, as you may have guessed, and its many buddies. They are my people, and it is my town and my place in the world. When Westminster offers more of the same, I and my colleagues in the SNP offer hope. When they say that things can only get worse, we say that there is another way. I hope that we get further down the road to independence and make things better for the people of Scotland.

George Adam (Paisley) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25072

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I find myself back on the back benches, freed from the shackles of Government, able to say what I really mean and what I really want to say. However, you are all gonnae be extremely disappointed, because sometimes I find Opposition business extremely tedious. Here we have the classic attempt by them to get that “gotcha” moment, talk down the Government and offer no ideas about delivery or what they would do. The Presiding Officer will remember that we used to discuss the big ideas here, during all parts of this chamber’s business. We used to talk about them all the time—but no longer. It now seems to be about a very simple “gotcha” and trying to get the next headline from the Opposition parties. Liam Kerr said that we should “put party politics aside”. I would quite gladly do that. If people genuinely want to work with me and others in the SNP to make a difference to young people’s lives, I would say, “Let’s go for it.” However, he made the most partisan political speech that I have heard for some time. Free school meals are there to support many families who are struggling. I am happy to work with the Government and others to achieve all our ambitions on school meals. This is more than just an academic discussion for me, given my background. My family are from Feegie—which, for theOfficial Report, is Ferguslie Park, in Paisley. It is an area that has had its challenges with poverty over the years, and that is what this is all about. I am here to represent the people of Paisley and the people I grew up with. Like other parts of Scotland, Ferguslie Park, in Paisley, has had to deal with those challenges with little support from successive UK Governments. The Scottish Government has invested to support those families as much as it can. A perfect example of that is the £400 million-worth of measures such as the Scottish child payment that have brought 100,000 children out of poverty. The Scottish Government has had to focus on those things while dealing with the constraints of the Westminster settlement. The problem is that the Scottish Government cannot keep propping up continually failing UK Governments. As I have stated, our on-going challenge in Scotland is that we have been continually hampered by successive UK Governments. I am sure that, with the full powers of independence, we could change all of our children’s futures for the better and move away from 14 years of Westminster failure on top of decade after decade of Westminster failure. Keir Starmer has been in office for two weeks and has chucked it already. He says that things can only get worse, but the Scottish National Party’s vision is greater than that. When Westminster says, “The game’s a bogey; we might as well chuck it,” we offer hope. We want to empower the people of Scotland to make their own decisions on the future. Even with the devolution settlement, the SNP has managed to bring 100,000 children out of poverty while the Tories, Labour and Westminster accelerate further austerity. I am here to represent the great town of Paisley, as you may have guessed, and its many buddies. They are my people, and it is my town and my place in the world. When Westminster offers more of the same, I and my colleagues in the SNP offer hope. When they say that things can only get worse, we say that there is another way. I hope that we get further down the road to independence and make things better for the people of Scotland.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.27

In 2021, the First Minister, then Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills, said that free school meals were a landmark policy. Successive First Ministers committed and re-committed to the policy. Those empty promises are now coming home to roost. If it is not school meals, it is the pledge to give an electronic device to every child, which then became every household, being cancelled, or the pledge to give bikes to children in poverty being cancelled after only 6,800 were delivered—that is less than 3 per cent of the 250,000 children who are in poverty. The Scottish Government promised an increase in teachers and teaching assistant numbers by 3,500, but we now have 250 fewer. Make no mistake, our children are suffering because of these failures. While we have had this SNP Government, education standards have undoubtedly fallen. The programme for international student assessment results from last year made it clear as day. Our science and maths scores in 2006 were 515 and 506, and they have now fallen to 483 and 471. The poverty-related attainment gap grew in the most recent exam results. For a Government that seemingly sees the issue as a priority, that should be a mark of shame. Another broken promise on increasing non-contact time by 90 minutes is placing teachers under more pressure. A WPI Economics report found that that would be possible only by raising teacher numbers, but they are now falling. Twenty per cent of teachers are leaving during their probation year, with many reporting stress as a factor. Children will experience the consequences of those broken promises, with large classes and overworked teachers. That will serve only to entrench inequalities and increase the attainment gap that the SNP says it wants to eliminate. The social attitudes survey this year showed trust in the Scottish Government at the lowest it has ever been, and U-turns such as this are fuelling that perception. The public wants the Scottish Government to succeed and to improve people’s lives, but announcing policies and then going back on them is eroding trust. When politicians make promises and fail to deliver, it reflects badly not only on the Government but on us all. We must understand that headlines are not a replacement for good governance. Governments should do what they say they will do; they should not over-promise and then cry foul when they are unable to deliver. We need tangible action to give children the best start in life. We need a real living wage to ensure that parents have money to put food on the table, an end to zero-hour contracts to allow stable work, and lower energy bills that are not at the mercy of the global market. That is how we can truly deliver.

Foysol Choudhury (Lothian) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25990

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

In 2021, the First Minister, then Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills, said that free school meals were a landmark policy. Successive First Ministers committed and re-committed to the policy. Those empty promises are now coming home to roost. If it is not school meals, it is the pledge to give an electronic device to every child, which then became every household, being cancelled, or the pledge to give bikes to children in poverty being cancelled after only 6,800 were delivered—that is less than 3 per cent of the 250,000 children who are in poverty. The Scottish Government promised an increase in teachers and teaching assistant numbers by 3,500, but we now have 250 fewer. Make no mistake, our children are suffering because of these failures. While we have had this SNP Government, education standards have undoubtedly fallen. The programme for international student assessment results from last year made it clear as day. Our science and maths scores in 2006 were 515 and 506, and they have now fallen to 483 and 471. The poverty-related attainment gap grew in the most recent exam results. For a Government that seemingly sees the issue as a priority, that should be a mark of shame. Another broken promise on increasing non-contact time by 90 minutes is placing teachers under more pressure. A WPI Economics report found that that would be possible only by raising teacher numbers, but they are now falling. Twenty per cent of teachers are leaving during their probation year, with many reporting stress as a factor. Children will experience the consequences of those broken promises, with large classes and overworked teachers. That will serve only to entrench inequalities and increase the attainment gap that the SNP says it wants to eliminate. The social attitudes survey this year showed trust in the Scottish Government at the lowest it has ever been, and U-turns such as this are fuelling that perception. The public wants the Scottish Government to succeed and to improve people’s lives, but announcing policies and then going back on them is eroding trust. When politicians make promises and fail to deliver, it reflects badly not only on the Government but on us all. We must understand that headlines are not a replacement for good governance. Governments should do what they say they will do; they should not over-promise and then cry foul when they are unable to deliver. We need tangible action to give children the best start in life. We need a real living wage to ensure that parents have money to put food on the table, an end to zero-hour contracts to allow stable work, and lower energy bills that are not at the mercy of the global market. That is how we can truly deliver.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.28

The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills said that she wanted some context and to engage with the Opposition. Like Willie Rennie, I will take her back a bit in the journey. I will talk specifically about how opinions have changed over time. When I was first elected to the Parliament, in 2007, the first committee session that I went to on the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee was a debate about whether free school meals were necessary and, if they were, on what basis. We took extensive—and I have to say, very interesting and, in some cases, surprising—evidence about whether that was the right thing to do. It came not just from Scotland—I remember a big study from Hull City. What was then called the Aberlour Childcare Trust warmly welcomed the committee’s engagement, but the trust said that it was “yet to be convinced” about universal school meals. Barnardo’s said the same, and Tam Baillie, who was the Commissioner for Children and Young People at the time, said: “I am not at all sure that introducing free school meals would be the best way of achieving the desired objective amongst our most vulnerable children.” He also said that many felt that the problems that the committee was trying to address would be far better addressed by giving assistance to those in the earliest years and not necessarily to those who were further into their primary school years. That was then, and this is now. Fourteen years on, my very strong view is that tackling the problems of unhealthy eating among our schoolchildren—for all the reasons that Brian Whittle set out—should be a major priority during this session of Parliament.

Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14096

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills said that she wanted some context and to engage with the Opposition. Like Willie Rennie, I will take her back a bit in the journey. I will talk specifically about how opinions have changed over time. When I was first elected to the Parliament, in 2007, the first committee session that I went to on the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee was a debate about whether free school meals were necessary and, if they were, on what basis. We took extensive—and I have to say, very interesting and, in some cases, surprising—evidence about whether that was the right thing to do. It came not just from Scotland—I remember a big study from Hull City. What was then called the Aberlour Childcare Trust warmly welcomed the committee’s engagement, but the trust said that it was “yet to be convinced” about universal school meals. Barnardo’s said the same, and Tam Baillie, who was the Commissioner for Children and Young People at the time, said: “I am not at all sure that introducing free school meals would be the best way of achieving the desired objective amongst our most vulnerable children.” He also said that many felt that the problems that the committee was trying to address would be far better addressed by giving assistance to those in the earliest years and not necessarily to those who were further into their primary school years. That was then, and this is now. Fourteen years on, my very strong view is that tackling the problems of unhealthy eating among our schoolchildren—for all the reasons that Brian Whittle set out—should be a major priority during this session of Parliament.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.29

Will the member take an intervention?

Evelyn Tweed (Stirling) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26015

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

Will the member take an intervention?

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.30

I will, in a minute. I presume that that is why the SNP made the manifesto commitment that it did in 2021. It made that promise, which we are debating this afternoon. As we all know, election promises are very important. If voters are attracted to those promises, as they were to those of the SNP, it is wrong to remove them. If the SNP cannot see that, it need only look at the general election, when other parties—mine included—were soundly taken apart in relation to some of the promises that we had broken. What matters here, of course, is our young people’s health. Evidence consistently shows that Scotland’s public health is very poor. It also shows that there is a very strong link between poor health and poor attainment. My goodness, the current state of attainment in Scotland is nothing of which to be proud. There are several issues to be debated. Are free breakfasts better than free lunches? At what age do pupils see the best results from free school meals? Is universalism the way forward? What do we do about the significant waste of food that far too many of our school dining rooms have every day? Those questions are all important but, for the purpose of this afternoon’s debate, the SNP made a clear and unequivocal promise, and to suddenly remove it is both disingenuous and deeply worrying to the parents who are finding it difficult to make ends meet. On that basis, I support the motion in Liam Kerr’s name.

Liz Smith

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14096

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

I will, in a minute. I presume that that is why the SNP made the manifesto commitment that it did in 2021. It made that promise, which we are debating this afternoon. As we all know, election promises are very important. If voters are attracted to those promises, as they were to those of the SNP, it is wrong to remove them. If the SNP cannot see that, it need only look at the general election, when other parties—mine included—were soundly taken apart in relation to some of the promises that we had broken. What matters here, of course, is our young people’s health. Evidence consistently shows that Scotland’s public health is very poor. It also shows that there is a very strong link between poor health and poor attainment. My goodness, the current state of attainment in Scotland is nothing of which to be proud. There are several issues to be debated. Are free breakfasts better than free lunches? At what age do pupils see the best results from free school meals? Is universalism the way forward? What do we do about the significant waste of food that far too many of our school dining rooms have every day? Those questions are all important but, for the purpose of this afternoon’s debate, the SNP made a clear and unequivocal promise, and to suddenly remove it is both disingenuous and deeply worrying to the parents who are finding it difficult to make ends meet. On that basis, I support the motion in Liam Kerr’s name.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.31

No child should go to school hungry; I think that we can agree on that across the chamber. I grew up receiving free school meals, and I know how important they are to life chances. As I came from a very poor background, they were essential for my development in every way. However, to be clear, universal school meals have not been axed, and currently the Government provides free school meals for nearly 278,000 pupils. The Scottish Government is reducing the cost of the school day by saving families £400 per child, per year. That provision is being expanded even further to those in primary 6 and 7 who are in receipt of the Scottish child payment. The decision to delay universal roll-out beyond the 2026 target has not been made lightly, and we must consider the financial backdrop to why such a decision was made. It is impossible to explain the choices that are made in Scotland without looking to the finite and unpredictable budget that is handed down from Westminster each year. It is impossible to divorce the size of that budget from the economic situation in the UK, which has been damaged by years of austerity, the catastrophe of Brexit and the 49 days of Liz Truss. To place the blame squarely on the Scottish Government is to deliberately and disingenuously obscure the national and international contexts. To justify austerity, successive Westminster Governments blame their predecessors for the conditions that they have inherited, but austerity is a political choice. Since 2019, the Scottish Government has spent £750 million to directly mitigate the effect of UK policies such as the bedroom tax and the two-child benefit cap in order to protect our constituents from the draconian policies that were introduced by the Conservatives and are now being continued by Labour. Of course, to be in a position where the roll-out of universal free school meals must be delayed is deeply upsetting to me. However, we must work together—cross-party and cross-Government—to find solutions not only to the financial situation that Scotland and the UK are facing but to poverty and inequality more broadly. The Scottish Parliament’s think tank, the Futures Forum, had an event last night at which the very issue of inequality was discussed, with wide-ranging views and with passion, and one thing was clear—we need to work together to tackle inequality. We have been elected to make people’s lives better, not to participate in a race to the bottom. Austerity has left the poorest even poorer, yet the wealth of the rich soars. The richest 1 per cent of Britons hold more wealth than 70 per cent of the population combined, and 60 per cent of the public think that the rich are not being taxed enough. The chancellor has been hinting at large cuts ahead without providing the detail that is necessary to plan appropriately. I fear that that may be the first of many difficult decisions, but it does not have to be. The predecessors of our Labour colleagues founded the welfare state as they believed that those in need should have a safety net, and now their Westminster colleagues have the power to end austerity should they choose to do so. Universality is the goal, if we work together.

Evelyn Tweed (Stirling) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26015

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

No child should go to school hungry; I think that we can agree on that across the chamber. I grew up receiving free school meals, and I know how important they are to life chances. As I came from a very poor background, they were essential for my development in every way. However, to be clear, universal school meals have not been axed, and currently the Government provides free school meals for nearly 278,000 pupils. The Scottish Government is reducing the cost of the school day by saving families £400 per child, per year. That provision is being expanded even further to those in primary 6 and 7 who are in receipt of the Scottish child payment. The decision to delay universal roll-out beyond the 2026 target has not been made lightly, and we must consider the financial backdrop to why such a decision was made. It is impossible to explain the choices that are made in Scotland without looking to the finite and unpredictable budget that is handed down from Westminster each year. It is impossible to divorce the size of that budget from the economic situation in the UK, which has been damaged by years of austerity, the catastrophe of Brexit and the 49 days of Liz Truss. To place the blame squarely on the Scottish Government is to deliberately and disingenuously obscure the national and international contexts. To justify austerity, successive Westminster Governments blame their predecessors for the conditions that they have inherited, but austerity is a political choice. Since 2019, the Scottish Government has spent £750 million to directly mitigate the effect of UK policies such as the bedroom tax and the two-child benefit cap in order to protect our constituents from the draconian policies that were introduced by the Conservatives and are now being continued by Labour. Of course, to be in a position where the roll-out of universal free school meals must be delayed is deeply upsetting to me. However, we must work together—cross-party and cross-Government—to find solutions not only to the financial situation that Scotland and the UK are facing but to poverty and inequality more broadly. The Scottish Parliament’s think tank, the Futures Forum, had an event last night at which the very issue of inequality was discussed, with wide-ranging views and with passion, and one thing was clear—we need to work together to tackle inequality. We have been elected to make people’s lives better, not to participate in a race to the bottom. Austerity has left the poorest even poorer, yet the wealth of the rich soars. The richest 1 per cent of Britons hold more wealth than 70 per cent of the population combined, and 60 per cent of the public think that the rich are not being taxed enough. The chancellor has been hinting at large cuts ahead without providing the detail that is necessary to plan appropriately. I fear that that may be the first of many difficult decisions, but it does not have to be. The predecessors of our Labour colleagues founded the welfare state as they believed that those in need should have a safety net, and now their Westminster colleagues have the power to end austerity should they choose to do so. Universality is the goal, if we work together.

dd8de67a-7ead-4717-8f33-bcd2034ac868

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-11.1.32

We now move to closing speeches.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Free School Meals (Primary Pupils)

We now move to closing speeches.