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5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.64

It is important to recognise that the recruitment of police officers is a matter for the chief constable. Nonetheless, despite the deeply challenging financial circumstances, our budget settlement for 2024-25 for Police Scotland includes an additional £75.7 million to protect front-line policing. As the chief constable confirmed to the Criminal Justice Committee, that budget settlement will enable Police Scotland to bring officer numbers up to around 16,500 to 16,600. It should be noted that Police Scotland has welcomed more than 690 new officers since March and more than 1,280 new recruits since the beginning of 2023, with further intakes planned throughout this year. Police Scotland is set to take on more recruits this year than at any time since 2013.

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

It is important to recognise that the recruitment of police officers is a matter for the chief constable. Nonetheless, despite the deeply challenging financial circumstances, our budget settlement for 2024-25 for Police Scotland includes an additional £75.7 million to protect front-line policing. As the chief constable confirmed to the Criminal Justice Committee, that budget settlement will enable Police Scotland to bring officer numbers up to around 16,500 to 16,600. It should be noted that Police Scotland has welcomed more than 690 new officers since March and more than 1,280 new recruits since the beginning of 2023, with further intakes planned throughout this year. Police Scotland is set to take on more recruits this year than at any time since 2013.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.65

The number of female probationers in Police Scotland has nosedived by almost a third since 2021. A damning independent report into the force’s so-called equality, diversity and inclusion activities was quietly published by Police Scotland last month. It found “pervasive attitudes of misogyny and sexism across all areas and divisions.” It also describes “a hostile environment for women who may choose to leave their careers early.” The Scottish National Party Government cannot look the other way, and alarm bells are ringing. How will the Scottish Government hold Police Scotland to account, to ensure that it creates a safe space for female employees?

Tess White

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26018

Portfolio Question Time

The number of female probationers in Police Scotland has nosedived by almost a third since 2021. A damning independent report into the force’s so-called equality, diversity and inclusion activities was quietly published by Police Scotland last month. It found “pervasive attitudes of misogyny and sexism across all areas and divisions.” It also describes “a hostile environment for women who may choose to leave their careers early.” The Scottish National Party Government cannot look the other way, and alarm bells are ringing. How will the Scottish Government hold Police Scotland to account, to ensure that it creates a safe space for female employees?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.66

First, it should be acknowledged that this Parliament decided on the basis of the separation of powers and, therefore, decided that it is for the Scottish Police Authority to hold Police Scotland and the chief constable directly to account. On the substantive issue that Ms White raises about the decreasing number of female probationers, I share that concern. I was pleased when Police Scotland opened up its site in Jackton as another recruitment centre in addition to Tulliallan. The member may be aware that Tulliallan is a residential training facility for probationers. The purpose of Jackton is to allow people to train to be police officers on a non-residential basis. I hope that that will help to increase the diversity of the workforce. I also point to the work that Lady Elish Angiolini undertook on the cultural aspects that the member raises and the progress that we have made in implementing the non-legislative recommendations with regard to that important work. We have embarked on and have just passed stage 1 of the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill, which is all about culture.

Angela Constance

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

First, it should be acknowledged that this Parliament decided on the basis of the separation of powers and, therefore, decided that it is for the Scottish Police Authority to hold Police Scotland and the chief constable directly to account. On the substantive issue that Ms White raises about the decreasing number of female probationers, I share that concern. I was pleased when Police Scotland opened up its site in Jackton as another recruitment centre in addition to Tulliallan. The member may be aware that Tulliallan is a residential training facility for probationers. The purpose of Jackton is to allow people to train to be police officers on a non-residential basis. I hope that that will help to increase the diversity of the workforce. I also point to the work that Lady Elish Angiolini undertook on the cultural aspects that the member raises and the progress that we have made in implementing the non-legislative recommendations with regard to that important work. We have embarked on and have just passed stage 1 of the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill, which is all about culture.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.67

Members have a number of supplementary questions.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

Members have a number of supplementary questions.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.68

The reality remains that the decisions that the United Kingdom Labour Government has made in the short time since it came to power will fundamentally damage our ability to deliver public services in Scotland. Public services need investment, as Scottish Labour frequently reminds us, and we cannot cut our way to more police officers. What assessment has been made of the threat that continued Westminster austerity poses to vital public services such as our police service?

Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26009

Portfolio Question Time

The reality remains that the decisions that the United Kingdom Labour Government has made in the short time since it came to power will fundamentally damage our ability to deliver public services in Scotland. Public services need investment, as Scottish Labour frequently reminds us, and we cannot cut our way to more police officers. What assessment has been made of the threat that continued Westminster austerity poses to vital public services such as our police service?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.69

In the face of financial challenges, this Government has made it clear that we will provide support where it is needed most, including through our public services such as policing. We all know that Labour austerity is as damaging as Tory austerity when it comes to public service cuts. Ahead of its autumn budget, we have again called on the UK Government to ensure that it prioritises investment in public services and infrastructure, because we know from experience that yet more Westminster austerity is not the answer that public services such as policing require, and they must be protected.

Angela Constance

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

In the face of financial challenges, this Government has made it clear that we will provide support where it is needed most, including through our public services such as policing. We all know that Labour austerity is as damaging as Tory austerity when it comes to public service cuts. Ahead of its autumn budget, we have again called on the UK Government to ensure that it prioritises investment in public services and infrastructure, because we know from experience that yet more Westminster austerity is not the answer that public services such as policing require, and they must be protected.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.70

Up to 500 police officers are called to court every single day, but many of them end up not giving evidence. Criminal trials conclude much more quickly when there is footage from body-worn cameras, but most of Scotland’s officers still do not have that basic kit. Does the cabinet secretary agree that its full and speedy roll-out is critical to improving policing strength in Scotland?

Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25996

Portfolio Question Time

Up to 500 police officers are called to court every single day, but many of them end up not giving evidence. Criminal trials conclude much more quickly when there is footage from body-worn cameras, but most of Scotland’s officers still do not have that basic kit. Does the cabinet secretary agree that its full and speedy roll-out is critical to improving policing strength in Scotland?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.71

Yes, I do. That is why this Government—despite having our capital budget cut in real terms by nearly 9 per cent—ensured that the capital budget for Police Scotland for this financial year increased by 12.5 per cent. I am pleased that Police Scotland has announced that the contract with Motorola is now signed. I am also pleased with the update that the chief constable gave to the Scottish Police Authority. It should be welcomed that, by spring next year, the first tranche of more than 10,000 body-worn video cameras will be rolled out, with the roll-out period continuing over the forthcoming 12 months. The chief constable will provide updates not only to the Scottish Police Authority and the Scottish Government but to the Criminal Justice Committee.

Angela Constance

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

Yes, I do. That is why this Government—despite having our capital budget cut in real terms by nearly 9 per cent—ensured that the capital budget for Police Scotland for this financial year increased by 12.5 per cent. I am pleased that Police Scotland has announced that the contract with Motorola is now signed. I am also pleased with the update that the chief constable gave to the Scottish Police Authority. It should be welcomed that, by spring next year, the first tranche of more than 10,000 body-worn video cameras will be rolled out, with the roll-out period continuing over the forthcoming 12 months. The chief constable will provide updates not only to the Scottish Police Authority and the Scottish Government but to the Criminal Justice Committee.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.72

From January 2022 to July this year, more than 1 million 101 calls were missed because the caller was disconnected or simply hung up. In June 2023, 41 per cent of all calls went unanswered. The longest a successful caller had to hang on was an hour and 23 minutes. What is the cabinet secretary doing to address that inadequate service?

Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11963

Portfolio Question Time

From January 2022 to July this year, more than 1 million 101 calls were missed because the caller was disconnected or simply hung up. In June 2023, 41 per cent of all calls went unanswered. The longest a successful caller had to hang on was an hour and 23 minutes. What is the cabinet secretary doing to address that inadequate service?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.73

It is important for me to say that the Government has challenged the statistics that the member quoted. We try to do that in the lines that are issued to the newspaper concerned. I am happy to follow that up in more detail with Ms Clark. It is also important to recognise that, in an emergency, people should, first and foremost, call 999, which has a good record of meeting its obligations within the 10-second window. However, in general, there is always more to do. People can contact Police Scotland in a number of ways, such as via email if that is appropriate. Obviously, 101 is not an emergency service. It is important to underline that 999 is the emergency service.

Angela Constance

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

It is important for me to say that the Government has challenged the statistics that the member quoted. We try to do that in the lines that are issued to the newspaper concerned. I am happy to follow that up in more detail with Ms Clark. It is also important to recognise that, in an emergency, people should, first and foremost, call 999, which has a good record of meeting its obligations within the 10-second window. However, in general, there is always more to do. People can contact Police Scotland in a number of ways, such as via email if that is appropriate. Obviously, 101 is not an emergency service. It is important to underline that 999 is the emergency service.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.75

To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to reports of senior lawyers seeking the introduction of a domestic abuse register. (S6O-03726)

2. Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25998

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to reports of senior lawyers seeking the introduction of a domestic abuse register. (S6O-03726)

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.76

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs and I are happy to consider any innovative policy intervention that furthers our commitment to do more for victims of domestic abuse, including considering how it would interact with existing initiatives. Pam Gosal will be aware that the disclosure scheme for domestic abuse Scotland provides individuals with the right to ask the police about a partner’s background if they suspect a history of domestic abuse. It also enables Police Scotland to tell people that they may be at risk even if that information has not been asked for.

The Minister for Victims and Community Safety (Siobhian Brown)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25986

Portfolio Question Time

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs and I are happy to consider any innovative policy intervention that furthers our commitment to do more for victims of domestic abuse, including considering how it would interact with existing initiatives. Pam Gosal will be aware that the disclosure scheme for domestic abuse Scotland provides individuals with the right to ask the police about a partner’s background if they suspect a history of domestic abuse. It also enables Police Scotland to tell people that they may be at risk even if that information has not been asked for.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.77

My proposal for a domestic abuse register has received cross-party support and the backing of many charities and organisations. Now, Thomas Ross KC has spoken movingly about the difference that a register could make. He says that it could prevent attacks and keep people safe. There were 62,000 domestic abuse incidents last year. That is horrific and it needs to change. What is the minister waiting for? Should the Government not act now and agree to introduce a register immediately?

Pam Gosal

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25998

Portfolio Question Time

My proposal for a domestic abuse register has received cross-party support and the backing of many charities and organisations. Now, Thomas Ross KC has spoken movingly about the difference that a register could make. He says that it could prevent attacks and keep people safe. There were 62,000 domestic abuse incidents last year. That is horrific and it needs to change. What is the minister waiting for? Should the Government not act now and agree to introduce a register immediately?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.78

I know that Pam Gosal is passionate about the subject. Violence against women is a fundamental violation of human rights, and the Scottish Government recognises that. The Scottish Government is aware that the Scottish Conservatives’ paper “United Against Violence: An all-Scotland approach to tackling domestic abuse” includes the member’s proposal for a domestic abuse prevention bill. I met the member prior to the consultation on the proposal going out. We await more operational detail and are not able to commit to something without seeing the full details, which I am sure Pam Gosal will appreciate. However, as I said in my first answer, we are happy to consider any proposals that make the lives of the victims of domestic abuse easier.

Siobhian Brown

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25986

Portfolio Question Time

I know that Pam Gosal is passionate about the subject. Violence against women is a fundamental violation of human rights, and the Scottish Government recognises that. The Scottish Government is aware that the Scottish Conservatives’ paper “United Against Violence: An all-Scotland approach to tackling domestic abuse” includes the member’s proposal for a domestic abuse prevention bill. I met the member prior to the consultation on the proposal going out. We await more operational detail and are not able to commit to something without seeing the full details, which I am sure Pam Gosal will appreciate. However, as I said in my first answer, we are happy to consider any proposals that make the lives of the victims of domestic abuse easier.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.79

It was welcome that the Scottish Government’s programme for government affirmed that steps would be taken to ensure that the equally safe delivery plan continues to be implemented. Will the minister speak to the funding that is being provided and how the plan will help to prevent and eradicate violence against women?

Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25522

Portfolio Question Time

It was welcome that the Scottish Government’s programme for government affirmed that steps would be taken to ensure that the equally safe delivery plan continues to be implemented. Will the minister speak to the funding that is being provided and how the plan will help to prevent and eradicate violence against women?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.80

Front-line services on violence against women are crucial to ensuring the safety of, and support to, survivors. We are investing record levels of funding to support people through a range of front-line specialist services. Our equally safe strategy is aimed at preventing and eradicating violence against women and girls and is focused on early intervention, prevention and support. It is backed by £19 million of annual funding from our delivering equally safe fund, which has supported 121 projects from 112 organisations since October 2021.

Siobhian Brown

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25986

Portfolio Question Time

Front-line services on violence against women are crucial to ensuring the safety of, and support to, survivors. We are investing record levels of funding to support people through a range of front-line specialist services. Our equally safe strategy is aimed at preventing and eradicating violence against women and girls and is focused on early intervention, prevention and support. It is backed by £19 million of annual funding from our delivering equally safe fund, which has supported 121 projects from 112 organisations since October 2021.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.82

To ask the Scottish Government when it last met with the Scottish Prison Service to discuss the findings of His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons for Scotland’s report on the full inspection of HMP and YOI Stirling. (S6O-03727)

3. Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14088

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government when it last met with the Scottish Prison Service to discuss the findings of His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons for Scotland’s report on the full inspection of HMP and YOI Stirling. (S6O-03727)

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.83

I welcome the inspection report from HMIPS, and I am encouraged to hear that HM chief inspector of prisons believes that Scotland is leading the way when it comes to managing women in custody. During my visit to HMP and YOI Stirling last month, I saw first hand the profoundly positive impact that the establishment is having on women in custody. Although the chief inspector highlights many areas of good practice, the SPS acknowledges that there is always room for learning and improvement. Through my regular discussions with the SPS chief executive, Teresa Medhurst, I am aware that the Prison Service is working to build on the positive tone of the chief inspector’s report.

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

I welcome the inspection report from HMIPS, and I am encouraged to hear that HM chief inspector of prisons believes that Scotland is leading the way when it comes to managing women in custody. During my visit to HMP and YOI Stirling last month, I saw first hand the profoundly positive impact that the establishment is having on women in custody. Although the chief inspector highlights many areas of good practice, the SPS acknowledges that there is always room for learning and improvement. Through my regular discussions with the SPS chief executive, Teresa Medhurst, I am aware that the Prison Service is working to build on the positive tone of the chief inspector’s report.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.84

We know and acknowledge that community-based, trauma-informed facilities are key to breaking those cycles of pain and reoffending and that that remains at the heart of the new facility at HMP Stirling and the excellent work that goes on there. That said, this recent report from the inspectorate confirmed what my constituents have been saying for over a year, which is that major design flaws at HMP Stirling have caused protracted issues with noise that have been distressing for people living both inside and outside the prison. Can the cabinet secretary update me on what lessons have been learned to ensure that future facilities do not have the same mistakes built into them? Can she assure me that the SPS will provide a clear timeline on the delivery of noise mitigation measures at HMP Stirling as soon as possible?

Mark Ruskell

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14088

Portfolio Question Time

We know and acknowledge that community-based, trauma-informed facilities are key to breaking those cycles of pain and reoffending and that that remains at the heart of the new facility at HMP Stirling and the excellent work that goes on there. That said, this recent report from the inspectorate confirmed what my constituents have been saying for over a year, which is that major design flaws at HMP Stirling have caused protracted issues with noise that have been distressing for people living both inside and outside the prison. Can the cabinet secretary update me on what lessons have been learned to ensure that future facilities do not have the same mistakes built into them? Can she assure me that the SPS will provide a clear timeline on the delivery of noise mitigation measures at HMP Stirling as soon as possible?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.85

I am aware that Mr Ruskell most recently met the deputy chief executive of the SPS on 11 September, and I am also aware that the Prison Service, residents and local councillors met in the establishment to discuss the noise issue. I reassure Mr Ruskell and indeed other members that I continue to discuss the issue with the chief executive, because it is in everybody’s interest that it is resolved. When the new prison was being built, the old one had to remain in operation. I know that the Prison Service is focused on timelines, in addition to the interpersonal interventions that it makes to support women to reduce the noise. The service is also liaising with engineering professionals and acousticians. It is awaiting a formal report from the acousticians, and it is also liaising with the local authority environmental health team, as well as residents, because we all want this to be resolved.

Angela Constance

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

I am aware that Mr Ruskell most recently met the deputy chief executive of the SPS on 11 September, and I am also aware that the Prison Service, residents and local councillors met in the establishment to discuss the noise issue. I reassure Mr Ruskell and indeed other members that I continue to discuss the issue with the chief executive, because it is in everybody’s interest that it is resolved. When the new prison was being built, the old one had to remain in operation. I know that the Prison Service is focused on timelines, in addition to the interpersonal interventions that it makes to support women to reduce the noise. The service is also liaising with engineering professionals and acousticians. It is awaiting a formal report from the acousticians, and it is also liaising with the local authority environmental health team, as well as residents, because we all want this to be resolved.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.86

Thank you. There are a number of supplementaries.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

Thank you. There are a number of supplementaries.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.87

Can the cabinet secretary provide details on how the Scottish Prison Service strategy for women in custody, supported by significant investment from the Scottish Government, has changed how we support the rehabilitation of women in prison?

Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25993

Portfolio Question Time

Can the cabinet secretary provide details on how the Scottish Prison Service strategy for women in custody, supported by significant investment from the Scottish Government, has changed how we support the rehabilitation of women in prison?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.88

The SPS strategy for women in custody represented a step change in the way that Scotland views and treats women in custody by considering their very likely experience of adversity and trauma. The opening of HMP Stirling was a key milestone for the strategy to care for women, representing a third new facility built specifically for women in custody and demonstrating an unprecedented period of investment to support women in custody. The innovative and groundbreaking women’s facilities help to create a culture that is founded on positive relationships, trust and self-worth. By delivering a range of offending behaviour programmes, other therapeutic interventions and holistic wellbeing services, the SPS has created an environment that fosters change and supports women on their rehabilitative journey.

Angela Constance

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

The SPS strategy for women in custody represented a step change in the way that Scotland views and treats women in custody by considering their very likely experience of adversity and trauma. The opening of HMP Stirling was a key milestone for the strategy to care for women, representing a third new facility built specifically for women in custody and demonstrating an unprecedented period of investment to support women in custody. The innovative and groundbreaking women’s facilities help to create a culture that is founded on positive relationships, trust and self-worth. By delivering a range of offending behaviour programmes, other therapeutic interventions and holistic wellbeing services, the SPS has created an environment that fosters change and supports women on their rehabilitative journey.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.89

On my last visit to HMP Stirling, I was made aware of some women offenders who have psychiatric conditions; the prison is not equipped to deal with them. That seems to be the key reason why the local people that Mark Ruskell mentioned are experiencing shouting from the prison. I am also aware that the Government has responded to questions that I and others have raised about Carstairs hospital having no female places. In view of that, is the Scottish Government assessing the various needs of women offenders serving a sentence who require specialist psychiatric services?

Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14062

Portfolio Question Time

On my last visit to HMP Stirling, I was made aware of some women offenders who have psychiatric conditions; the prison is not equipped to deal with them. That seems to be the key reason why the local people that Mark Ruskell mentioned are experiencing shouting from the prison. I am also aware that the Government has responded to questions that I and others have raised about Carstairs hospital having no female places. In view of that, is the Scottish Government assessing the various needs of women offenders serving a sentence who require specialist psychiatric services?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.90

I am pleased to advise the member that I work closely with health colleagues. As a former prison social worker, I am very clear about what prison care and custody provides and what it does not. I am also a former hospital social worker at the Carstairs State Hospital. We are planning for high-secure provision for women in the state hospital. The Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport met relevant health board chief executives in April to discuss that proposition. Although the work is at a very early stage, we are absolutely committed to working with health boards to improve access for women to forensic mental health services. We will continue to do that as the longer-term proposition at the State Hospital is developed.

Angela Constance

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

I am pleased to advise the member that I work closely with health colleagues. As a former prison social worker, I am very clear about what prison care and custody provides and what it does not. I am also a former hospital social worker at the Carstairs State Hospital. We are planning for high-secure provision for women in the state hospital. The Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport met relevant health board chief executives in April to discuss that proposition. Although the work is at a very early stage, we are absolutely committed to working with health boards to improve access for women to forensic mental health services. We will continue to do that as the longer-term proposition at the State Hospital is developed.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.91

HMP YOI Stirling’s inspection report found positive aspects of good practice at the prison, but a number of design flaws were indicated. We all already know about the issues that that has created for the neighbourhood, including noise. What action will be taken to mitigate as far as possible the difficulties that the residents are facing and the impact that the prison is having on their community?

Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25538

Portfolio Question Time

HMP YOI Stirling’s inspection report found positive aspects of good practice at the prison, but a number of design flaws were indicated. We all already know about the issues that that has created for the neighbourhood, including noise. What action will be taken to mitigate as far as possible the difficulties that the residents are facing and the impact that the prison is having on their community?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.92

I say to Mr Stewart and others who have advocated on behalf of the residents that every action will be taken. I will continue to liaise closely with the Prison Service on the matter.

Angela Constance

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

I say to Mr Stewart and others who have advocated on behalf of the residents that every action will be taken. I will continue to liaise closely with the Prison Service on the matter.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.94

To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to tackle antisocial behaviour in Lothian. (S6O-03728)

4. Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13956

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to tackle antisocial behaviour in Lothian. (S6O-03728)

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.95

We support Police Scotland and local authorities to continue to invest in prevention, early intervention and diversionary activities to reduce antisocial behaviour. A wide range of powers are available to Police Scotland, and it is best placed to lead on addressing those issues locally, ensuring that there is an appropriate response to the issues and circumstances in which the behaviour is taking place. I recognise that antisocial behaviour can be complex. An independent working group on antisocial behaviour is examining our strategic approach to it. The group is undertaking widespread engagement to deliver its report later this year. We have committed in the programme for government to act on the group’s recommendations.

The Minister for Victims and Community Safety (Siobhian Brown)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25986

Portfolio Question Time

We support Police Scotland and local authorities to continue to invest in prevention, early intervention and diversionary activities to reduce antisocial behaviour. A wide range of powers are available to Police Scotland, and it is best placed to lead on addressing those issues locally, ensuring that there is an appropriate response to the issues and circumstances in which the behaviour is taking place. I recognise that antisocial behaviour can be complex. An independent working group on antisocial behaviour is examining our strategic approach to it. The group is undertaking widespread engagement to deliver its report later this year. We have committed in the programme for government to act on the group’s recommendations.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.96

I welcome the minister’s response. I alert her to the fact that recent reports have shown that antisocial behaviour has had a major impact on local communities, which includes Lothian Buses pulling services due to an increase in antisocial behaviour. In West Lothian, there has been an increase of 12 per cent in antisocial behaviour, including vandalism and breach of the peace. I welcome the fact that the minister is putting together a working party, but does she accept that communities need support now to tackle antisocial behaviour? Does she accept that—because local authorities are underresourced, which has had an impact on youth groups and community spaces—many young people in Lothian simply do not have the options, opportunities and support that they need? Can the minister tell us exactly what is going to happen to tackle the underlying issues that create antisocial behaviour in the first place?

Sarah Boyack

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13956

Portfolio Question Time

I welcome the minister’s response. I alert her to the fact that recent reports have shown that antisocial behaviour has had a major impact on local communities, which includes Lothian Buses pulling services due to an increase in antisocial behaviour. In West Lothian, there has been an increase of 12 per cent in antisocial behaviour, including vandalism and breach of the peace. I welcome the fact that the minister is putting together a working party, but does she accept that communities need support now to tackle antisocial behaviour? Does she accept that—because local authorities are underresourced, which has had an impact on youth groups and community spaces—many young people in Lothian simply do not have the options, opportunities and support that they need? Can the minister tell us exactly what is going to happen to tackle the underlying issues that create antisocial behaviour in the first place?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.97

Thank you. I think that the minister has got your drift.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

Thank you. I think that the minister has got your drift.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.98

First of all, such behaviour is absolutely unacceptable. Everyone has a right to feel safe in their communities. I completely condemn all such behaviour and urge anyone with information of such incidents that have taken place recently in Lothian to contact the police. I am aware that East Lothian currently has two multi-agency groups that are focused on tackling antisocial behaviour, which are the antisocial behaviour overview group and the weekly tasking and co-ordinating group. I am also aware of a collaborative approach with Police Scotland and local authorities. I have visited one of those groups in East Lothian to see the work that those individuals do to tackle antisocial behaviour. A lot of work is currently happening in that area.

Siobhian Brown

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25986

Portfolio Question Time

First of all, such behaviour is absolutely unacceptable. Everyone has a right to feel safe in their communities. I completely condemn all such behaviour and urge anyone with information of such incidents that have taken place recently in Lothian to contact the police. I am aware that East Lothian currently has two multi-agency groups that are focused on tackling antisocial behaviour, which are the antisocial behaviour overview group and the weekly tasking and co-ordinating group. I am also aware of a collaborative approach with Police Scotland and local authorities. I have visited one of those groups in East Lothian to see the work that those individuals do to tackle antisocial behaviour. A lot of work is currently happening in that area.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.99

I have been contacted by businesses, residents and visitors in Leith, Edinburgh regarding escalating issues of antisocial behaviour outside Newkirkgate shopping centre. It is becoming a common occurrence for assaults to take place and for needles to be left lying on the ground. Although the joined-up approach as set out in the review on antisocial behaviour is necessary, short-term action must also be taken. Can the minister advise how the Scottish Government is empowering the police to stop antisocial behaviour as it happens?

Foysol Choudhury (Lothian) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25990

Portfolio Question Time

I have been contacted by businesses, residents and visitors in Leith, Edinburgh regarding escalating issues of antisocial behaviour outside Newkirkgate shopping centre. It is becoming a common occurrence for assaults to take place and for needles to be left lying on the ground. Although the joined-up approach as set out in the review on antisocial behaviour is necessary, short-term action must also be taken. Can the minister advise how the Scottish Government is empowering the police to stop antisocial behaviour as it happens?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.100

We recognise that there is no quick fix to tackle and prevent antisocial behaviour. That is why, having seen the projects that I just mentioned to Sarah Boyack, I am strongly supportive of partnership working and delivering positive outcomes. I have also asked for the Scottish Community Safety Network to look at promoting best practice in partnership, working for the benefits of all local authorities. Police Scotland is also involved in all those groups to tackle antisocial behaviour.

Siobhian Brown

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25986

Portfolio Question Time

We recognise that there is no quick fix to tackle and prevent antisocial behaviour. That is why, having seen the projects that I just mentioned to Sarah Boyack, I am strongly supportive of partnership working and delivering positive outcomes. I have also asked for the Scottish Community Safety Network to look at promoting best practice in partnership, working for the benefits of all local authorities. Police Scotland is also involved in all those groups to tackle antisocial behaviour.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.102

To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with Police Scotland regarding possible criminal charges against the former NHS Tayside surgeon, Sam Eljamel. (S6O-03729)

5. Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26003

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with Police Scotland regarding possible criminal charges against the former NHS Tayside surgeon, Sam Eljamel. (S6O-03729)

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.103

Scottish Government officials met Police Scotland in June to discuss the establishment of the public inquiry and other developing work. As there is currently an on-going Police Scotland investigation into the practices of Mr Eljamel, it would not be appropriate for the Scottish Government to comment further.

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

Scottish Government officials met Police Scotland in June to discuss the establishment of the public inquiry and other developing work. As there is currently an on-going Police Scotland investigation into the practices of Mr Eljamel, it would not be appropriate for the Scottish Government to comment further.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.104

Last week, Pat Kelly and Jules Rose, two victims of Eljamel and tireless campaigners for justice for all victims, staged a protest outside the Dundee police headquarters. Their protest marked six years since complaints were lodged regarding former NHS Tayside surgeon Sam Eljamel. Police officers have spent a decade fighting for justice. The content of the case is not a matter for the cabinet secretary, but the performance of our police is. Surely the cabinet secretary cannot believe that a six-year delay is in any way acceptable.

Michael Marra

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26003

Portfolio Question Time

Last week, Pat Kelly and Jules Rose, two victims of Eljamel and tireless campaigners for justice for all victims, staged a protest outside the Dundee police headquarters. Their protest marked six years since complaints were lodged regarding former NHS Tayside surgeon Sam Eljamel. Police officers have spent a decade fighting for justice. The content of the case is not a matter for the cabinet secretary, but the performance of our police is. Surely the cabinet secretary cannot believe that a six-year delay is in any way acceptable.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.105

I know that Mr Marra and others, in particular Liz Smith, have diligently advocated on behalf of former patients of Mr Eljamel. I am also aware of the representations that those campaigners and those who were impacted have made to Police Scotland, and I acknowledge the timeframes that were referenced by Mr Marra. If I may, I will point to the public statement that Police Scotland made, which said: “This is an extremely complex investigation which is being investigated by specialist officers from the Major Investigation Team. Enquiries remain ongoing and we continue to work alongside partner agencies.”

Angela Constance

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

I know that Mr Marra and others, in particular Liz Smith, have diligently advocated on behalf of former patients of Mr Eljamel. I am also aware of the representations that those campaigners and those who were impacted have made to Police Scotland, and I acknowledge the timeframes that were referenced by Mr Marra. If I may, I will point to the public statement that Police Scotland made, which said: “This is an extremely complex investigation which is being investigated by specialist officers from the Major Investigation Team. Enquiries remain ongoing and we continue to work alongside partner agencies.”

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.106

A year ago, at First Minister’s question time, I asked the then First Minister, Humza Yousaf, whether the Scottish Government would consider a victim support fund for the patients, not least because of the delays that Mr Marra has just cited. I need not repeat to the chamber the fact that those patients are undergoing terrible physical and mental problems. Will the Government please continue to support them?

Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14096

Portfolio Question Time

A year ago, at First Minister’s question time, I asked the then First Minister, Humza Yousaf, whether the Scottish Government would consider a victim support fund for the patients, not least because of the delays that Mr Marra has just cited. I need not repeat to the chamber the fact that those patients are undergoing terrible physical and mental problems. Will the Government please continue to support them?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.107

The very last thing that I would do to Liz Smith or, indeed, to victims is stand here and make promises that I might or might not be able to keep, so I say to her that I would be more than happy to discuss the matter with her in further detail.

Angela Constance

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

The very last thing that I would do to Liz Smith or, indeed, to victims is stand here and make promises that I might or might not be able to keep, so I say to her that I would be more than happy to discuss the matter with her in further detail.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.108

I advise members that we have three more questions to get through and less than eight minutes in which to do so. Questions and answers must be succinct, and we will see what we can do.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

I advise members that we have three more questions to get through and less than eight minutes in which to do so. Questions and answers must be succinct, and we will see what we can do.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.110

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide further details of what it is doing to ensure that Police Scotland has enough officers to deal with antisocial behaviour resulting from the illegal use of e-bikes and e-scooters. (S6O-03730)

6. Sue Webber (Lothian) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26017

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide further details of what it is doing to ensure that Police Scotland has enough officers to deal with antisocial behaviour resulting from the illegal use of e-bikes and e-scooters. (S6O-03730)

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.111

The Scottish Government’s budget for 2024-25 includes record police total funding of £1.55 billion, which is an increase of £92.7 million on the previous year. That funding will allow the chief constable to develop her plans to deliver on her commitment to strengthen the force through the revised model of policing, including enabling the service to restart recruitment and increase office numbers. Police Scotland has welcomed more than 690 new officers since March this year, and more than 1,280 new recruits since the beginning of 2023. Further intakes are planned throughout this year. It is important to reiterate that deployment of those resources is an operational matter for Police Scotland. However, I remind the chamber that it is presently illegal to use an e-scooter on public roads, footpaths or cycle lanes in Scotland.

The Minister for Victims and Community Safety (Siobhian Brown)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25986

Portfolio Question Time

The Scottish Government’s budget for 2024-25 includes record police total funding of £1.55 billion, which is an increase of £92.7 million on the previous year. That funding will allow the chief constable to develop her plans to deliver on her commitment to strengthen the force through the revised model of policing, including enabling the service to restart recruitment and increase office numbers. Police Scotland has welcomed more than 690 new officers since March this year, and more than 1,280 new recruits since the beginning of 2023. Further intakes are planned throughout this year. It is important to reiterate that deployment of those resources is an operational matter for Police Scotland. However, I remind the chamber that it is presently illegal to use an e-scooter on public roads, footpaths or cycle lanes in Scotland.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.112

The latest official statistics show that Scotland has the lowest number of officers in at least 17 years. Meanwhile, recorded crime is rising and we are repeatedly told that Police Scotland is underresourced and overstretched. At the same time, I hear repeated reports of havoc being caused by the misuse and illegal use of e-bikes and e-scooters—I even saw an e-skateboard the other day. People in my region have reported being frightened by masked gangs using those vehicles and have detailed significant concerns for their safety, with little action being taken. Other than the financial support that the minister has outlined, what more can the Scottish Government do to protect communities and to punish those who choose to cause trouble with those illegal vehicles?

Sue Webber

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26017

Portfolio Question Time

The latest official statistics show that Scotland has the lowest number of officers in at least 17 years. Meanwhile, recorded crime is rising and we are repeatedly told that Police Scotland is underresourced and overstretched. At the same time, I hear repeated reports of havoc being caused by the misuse and illegal use of e-bikes and e-scooters—I even saw an e-skateboard the other day. People in my region have reported being frightened by masked gangs using those vehicles and have detailed significant concerns for their safety, with little action being taken. Other than the financial support that the minister has outlined, what more can the Scottish Government do to protect communities and to punish those who choose to cause trouble with those illegal vehicles?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.113

We share the member’s concerns and those of the public regarding the antisocial behaviour that can be associated with those vehicles, which might be used illegally and are a safety risk not just to the public and other motorists but to the riders, as well as to the police. As Sue Webber is no doubt aware, the legislation that governs the registration of off-road vehicles is reserved to the United Kingdom Government. We fully support Police Scotland and its partners in dealing with illegal and irresponsible use. Local policing teams are best placed to use intelligence and engage with communities to identify where misuse of such vehicles is causing concern, and that ensures that those hotspot areas can be prioritised to prevent future instances and deal with those who are engaged in the misuse of vehicles.

Siobhian Brown

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25986

Portfolio Question Time

We share the member’s concerns and those of the public regarding the antisocial behaviour that can be associated with those vehicles, which might be used illegally and are a safety risk not just to the public and other motorists but to the riders, as well as to the police. As Sue Webber is no doubt aware, the legislation that governs the registration of off-road vehicles is reserved to the United Kingdom Government. We fully support Police Scotland and its partners in dealing with illegal and irresponsible use. Local policing teams are best placed to use intelligence and engage with communities to identify where misuse of such vehicles is causing concern, and that ensures that those hotspot areas can be prioritised to prevent future instances and deal with those who are engaged in the misuse of vehicles.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.115

To ask the Scottish Government whether the new HMP Highland will be completed by 2026 without further exceeding the reported current cost overrun of £157 million, which is a 300 per cent increase compared with the original cost. (S6O-03731)

7. Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25529

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government whether the new HMP Highland will be completed by 2026 without further exceeding the reported current cost overrun of £157 million, which is a 300 per cent increase compared with the original cost. (S6O-03731)

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.116

Following the award of the construction contract for HMP Highland in April this year, the construction is progressing to plan on site and is scheduled to be complete in 2026, within the reported budget. Early estimates of cost were made more than a decade ago, before a design and a site had been identified. Since then, years of inflation and changing economic conditions have impacted on the price.

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

Following the award of the construction contract for HMP Highland in April this year, the construction is progressing to plan on site and is scheduled to be complete in 2026, within the reported budget. Early estimates of cost were made more than a decade ago, before a design and a site had been identified. Since then, years of inflation and changing economic conditions have impacted on the price.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.117

I am pleased to hear that the prison might be completed on time, although I am still not sure whether to believe that. What steps will be taken to ensure that, when it is completed, prison accommodation will be available for female prisoners?

Edward Mountain

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25529

Portfolio Question Time

I am pleased to hear that the prison might be completed on time, although I am still not sure whether to believe that. What steps will be taken to ensure that, when it is completed, prison accommodation will be available for female prisoners?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.118

I am glad to hear that Mr Mountain is now advocating for the delivery of that much-needed new establishment for the Highlands. I was made aware recently that he opposed the original site at Milton of Leys, which would not have helped with timescales but, nonetheless, he has his democratic rights. The point that he raises about female prisoners is important, given the geography of the Highlands. There will be provision to accommodate a small number of women at the site.

Angela Constance

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13969

Portfolio Question Time

I am glad to hear that Mr Mountain is now advocating for the delivery of that much-needed new establishment for the Highlands. I was made aware recently that he opposed the original site at Milton of Leys, which would not have helped with timescales but, nonetheless, he has his democratic rights. The point that he raises about female prisoners is important, given the geography of the Highlands. There will be provision to accommodate a small number of women at the site.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.119

On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think that the minister was disingenuous when she responded to my question. I opposed the site at Milton of Leys, which is not where the prison is being built. Will the minister correct the record to say that I did not oppose construction of a Highland prison? I have been supporting it since 2006.

Edward Mountain

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25529

Portfolio Question Time

On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think that the minister was disingenuous when she responded to my question. I opposed the site at Milton of Leys, which is not where the prison is being built. Will the minister correct the record to say that I did not oppose construction of a Highland prison? I have been supporting it since 2006.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.120

I thank Mr Mountain for his contribution; the matter is noted. Time is tight this afternoon, so we will have to conclude portfolio questions on justice and home affairs. I apologise to the member whose question was published in theBusiness Bulletinthat I was not able to call her question, and to a member who sought to ask a supplementary question. There will be a short pause before we move on to the next item of business to allow the front-bench teams to change positions.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

I thank Mr Mountain for his contribution; the matter is noted. Time is tight this afternoon, so we will have to conclude portfolio questions on justice and home affairs. I apologise to the member whose question was published in theBusiness Bulletinthat I was not able to call her question, and to a member who sought to ask a supplementary question. There will be a short pause before we move on to the next item of business to allow the front-bench teams to change positions.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.1

The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees— (a) the following programme of business— Tuesday 24 September 2024 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Ministerial Statement: Health and Social Care Winter Preparedness Plan 2024-25 followed by Scottish Government Debate: The UK Budget – Scotland’s Priorities followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 25 September 2024 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:Deputy First Minister Responsibilities, Economy and Gaelic;Finance and Local Government followed by Education, Children and Young People Committee Debate: Additional Support for Learning followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 26 September 2024 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister's Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:Net Zero and Energy, and Transport followed by Scottish Government Debate: Scotland Stands with Ukraine followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time Tuesday 1 October 2024 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 2 October 2024 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;Health and Social Care followed by Scottish Labour Party Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.10 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 3 October 2024 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister's Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:Social Justice followed by Scottish Government Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time (b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 23 September 2024, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.—[Jamie Hepburn].

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees— (a) the following programme of business— Tuesday 24 September 2024 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Ministerial Statement: Health and Social Care Winter Preparedness Plan 2024-25 followed by Scottish Government Debate: The UK Budget – Scotland’s Priorities followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 25 September 2024 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:Deputy First Minister Responsibilities, Economy and Gaelic;Finance and Local Government followed by Education, Children and Young People Committee Debate: Additional Support for Learning followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 26 September 2024 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister's Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:Net Zero and Energy, and Transport followed by Scottish Government Debate: Scotland Stands with Ukraine followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time Tuesday 1 October 2024 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 2 October 2024 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;Health and Social Care followed by Scottish Labour Party Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.10 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 3 October 2024 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister's Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:Social Justice followed by Scottish Government Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time (b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 23 September 2024, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.—[Jamie Hepburn].

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.2

I call Douglas Ross to speak to and move amendment S6M-14534.1.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

I call Douglas Ross to speak to and move amendment S6M-14534.1.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.3

It was exactly one week ago today that two Scottish Conservative motions brought before this Parliament were passed by a majority of members. They dealt with two serious, important and topical issues—peak rail fares and the delivery of free school meals for all primary school pupils across Scotland in the course of this parliamentary session. The votes on those motions were successful, but a week has passed and we have heard nothing from the Scottish Government about how it intends to obey the will of Parliament. At this point, may I invite the First Minister to address Parliament and indicate, as I am sure he will, that he intends to obey the will of Parliament?

Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Business Motion

It was exactly one week ago today that two Scottish Conservative motions brought before this Parliament were passed by a majority of members. They dealt with two serious, important and topical issues—peak rail fares and the delivery of free school meals for all primary school pupils across Scotland in the course of this parliamentary session. The votes on those motions were successful, but a week has passed and we have heard nothing from the Scottish Government about how it intends to obey the will of Parliament. At this point, may I invite the First Minister to address Parliament and indicate, as I am sure he will, that he intends to obey the will of Parliament?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.4

If Mr Ross wishes me to talk about the will of Parliament, what about Mr Ross obeying the will of a Parliament that has voted for there to be an independence referendum so that people can decide? What does he think about that?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

Business Motion

If Mr Ross wishes me to talk about the will of Parliament, what about Mr Ross obeying the will of a Parliament that has voted for there to be an independence referendum so that people can decide? What does he think about that?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.5

Is it not telling but also sad that the First Minister speaks about independence and separating Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom when the discussion is about free school meals for all primary school pupils across Scotland? In the question that I asked the First Minister— “may I invite the First Minister to address Parliament and indicate, as I am sure he will, that he intends to obey the will of Parliament?”— I did not use my words. Those are John Swinney’s words. That is what John Swinney said when he was sitting on the Opposition benches in 2001 and the then Labour-Liberal Democrat Executive had been defeated, resulting in a motion being passed against its will. John Swinney was the first one up on his feet asking for a statement from the then First Minister about how he would obey the will of Parliament. [Interruption.]

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Business Motion

Is it not telling but also sad that the First Minister speaks about independence and separating Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom when the discussion is about free school meals for all primary school pupils across Scotland? In the question that I asked the First Minister— “may I invite the First Minister to address Parliament and indicate, as I am sure he will, that he intends to obey the will of Parliament?”— I did not use my words. Those are John Swinney’s words. That is what John Swinney said when he was sitting on the Opposition benches in 2001 and the then Labour-Liberal Democrat Executive had been defeated, resulting in a motion being passed against its will. John Swinney was the first one up on his feet asking for a statement from the then First Minister about how he would obey the will of Parliament. [Interruption.]

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.6

Let us hear Mr Ross.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

Let us hear Mr Ross.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.7

If the First Minister wants to hear more of his words, I can say that he went on to say this: “Ministers seem desperate to make statements when it suits them, but not when they have problems in Parliament. Will the First Minister give a commitment ... to make a statement to Parliament ... to clarify the Government’s stance on the amended motion to which Parliament agreed?”—[Official Report, 8 March 2001; c 427.] I could not agree more with what John Swinney said when he was in opposition. Why is John Swinney now not so keen to respect the will of Parliament and come forward to make a statement on these issues? I know that this is not an important issue for some MSPs—George Adam described the debate about free school meals as extremely tedious.

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Business Motion

If the First Minister wants to hear more of his words, I can say that he went on to say this: “Ministers seem desperate to make statements when it suits them, but not when they have problems in Parliament. Will the First Minister give a commitment ... to make a statement to Parliament ... to clarify the Government’s stance on the amended motion to which Parliament agreed?”—[Official Report, 8 March 2001; c 427.] I could not agree more with what John Swinney said when he was in opposition. Why is John Swinney now not so keen to respect the will of Parliament and come forward to make a statement on these issues? I know that this is not an important issue for some MSPs—George Adam described the debate about free school meals as extremely tedious.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.8

You are tedious.

Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee City West) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13987

Business Motion

You are tedious.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.9

Members, can I ask that we conduct ourselves in a courteous and orderly manner?

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

Members, can I ask that we conduct ourselves in a courteous and orderly manner?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.10

I do not think that it is extremely tedious. I think that it is extremely important that we have an opportunity to hear from the First Minister or his cabinet secretaries about the two proposals, which they previously supported and no longer do. John Swinney was the Deputy First Minister and education secretary who put the commitment for free school meals for every primary school pupil into the Scottish National Party manifesto. He asked for support to elect his MSPs on that basis. Now, Parliament has asked his Government to come forward with its plans to obey the will of Parliament, which he was previously keen on. I think that it is right that we now look at that.

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Business Motion

I do not think that it is extremely tedious. I think that it is extremely important that we have an opportunity to hear from the First Minister or his cabinet secretaries about the two proposals, which they previously supported and no longer do. John Swinney was the Deputy First Minister and education secretary who put the commitment for free school meals for every primary school pupil into the Scottish National Party manifesto. He asked for support to elect his MSPs on that basis. Now, Parliament has asked his Government to come forward with its plans to obey the will of Parliament, which he was previously keen on. I think that it is right that we now look at that.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.11

I recognise the member’s enthusiasm for these policies. Will he, therefore, bring forward amendments to the Scottish Government’s budget to ensure that they progress? [Applause.]

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic (Kate Forbes)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25504

Business Motion

I recognise the member’s enthusiasm for these policies. Will he, therefore, bring forward amendments to the Scottish Government’s budget to ensure that they progress? [Applause.]

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.12

I am very keen on these policies, and I note that people are applauding the idea that the SNP might actually do what it said that it would do. My colleagues have already engaged in conversation about this—[Interruption.]

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Business Motion

I am very keen on these policies, and I note that people are applauding the idea that the SNP might actually do what it said that it would do. My colleagues have already engaged in conversation about this—[Interruption.]

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.13

Let us hear one another.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

Let us hear one another.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.14

—but we would be able to hear more about it and be able to have a discussion if the Government simply made time to enable us to do so. I have been very clear in my amendment to the business motion. I am not asking for anything to be removed; I am asking for 30 minutes to be added next week—just half an hour—to hear more about John Swinney’s previous commitment to free school meals and to hear more about the SNP’s previous promise to cap peak rail fares. I hope that the Minister for Parliamentary Business will listen to the will of Parliament, given that parties across the chamber have come together to vote for these two policies to be enacted, and will give us an opportunity to hear from ministers how they will either obey the will of Parliament or tell us why they cannot and will not. Parents of schoolchildren and travellers across Scotland want to know what the Scottish Government will do after the Opposition parties united to tell it that these two issues are of crucial importance. We need to hear from a minister and, by approving the amendment that I have lodged today, that can happen next week. I move amendment S6M-14534.1, to leave out “2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:Net Zero and Energy, and Transport” and insert “2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:Net Zero and Energy, and Transport followed by Ministerial Statement: Delivering on the Votes of the Parliament on 11 September 2024 to Provide Free School Meals to All Primary School Children in the Current Parliamentary Session and to End Peak Rail Fares”.

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Business Motion

—but we would be able to hear more about it and be able to have a discussion if the Government simply made time to enable us to do so. I have been very clear in my amendment to the business motion. I am not asking for anything to be removed; I am asking for 30 minutes to be added next week—just half an hour—to hear more about John Swinney’s previous commitment to free school meals and to hear more about the SNP’s previous promise to cap peak rail fares. I hope that the Minister for Parliamentary Business will listen to the will of Parliament, given that parties across the chamber have come together to vote for these two policies to be enacted, and will give us an opportunity to hear from ministers how they will either obey the will of Parliament or tell us why they cannot and will not. Parents of schoolchildren and travellers across Scotland want to know what the Scottish Government will do after the Opposition parties united to tell it that these two issues are of crucial importance. We need to hear from a minister and, by approving the amendment that I have lodged today, that can happen next week. I move amendment S6M-14534.1, to leave out “2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:Net Zero and Energy, and Transport” and insert “2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:Net Zero and Energy, and Transport followed by Ministerial Statement: Delivering on the Votes of the Parliament on 11 September 2024 to Provide Free School Meals to All Primary School Children in the Current Parliamentary Session and to End Peak Rail Fares”.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.15

I call Jamie Hepburn to respond on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

I call Jamie Hepburn to respond on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.16

With regard to the amendment that is before us, I must make it clear that, following last week’s debates on these matters, there is nothing new for ministers to set out to Parliament.

The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Jamie Hepburn)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14009

Business Motion

With regard to the amendment that is before us, I must make it clear that, following last week’s debates on these matters, there is nothing new for ministers to set out to Parliament.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.17

Surely something new is that the will of Parliament has been very clearly articulated in a vote that had support from members of the Scottish Conservative Party, the Scottish Labour Party, the Scottish Liberal Democrats, the Scottish Greens and Alba. The difference is that Parliament has now said that the policies should be enacted, so we should at least hear a response from ministers.

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Business Motion

Surely something new is that the will of Parliament has been very clearly articulated in a vote that had support from members of the Scottish Conservative Party, the Scottish Labour Party, the Scottish Liberal Democrats, the Scottish Greens and Alba. The difference is that Parliament has now said that the policies should be enacted, so we should at least hear a response from ministers.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.18

Members can bring these matters up across a range of opportunities. I will return, momentarily, to the subject matter. As was made clear to Parliament last week, although the Scottish Government remains committed to our free school meals programme, we are unable to roll out universal provision to primary 6 and 7 at the current time, due to the financial position. The Scottish Government continues to advocate for an end to Westminster austerity, which the new UK Government has continued. As was also made clear last week, should the financial situation allow, we will look to take universal provision forward in this parliamentary session. The next stage of the free school meals programme, which has always been an iterative process, is to deliver meals for those who are in receipt of Scottish child payment in primary 6 and 7. I reaffirm that that stage is fully funded and will be delivered in this parliamentary session. The ScotRail peak fares removal pilot was a temporary arrangement, which was announced as part of the 2023-24 budget. The pilot was initially intended to run for six months, and the Government extended it for a further six months—for a total duration of 12 months. It was not, as has been suggested by some, a Scottish Government manifesto commitment. In light of the financial challenges that we face and the level of additional and continuing subsidy that is required to continue the pilot—against its contribution to tackling climate change, with modal shift from car, and tackling child poverty, which are key Scottish Government policies—we have been unable to continue the pilot beyond 27 September. However, as the Cabinet Secretary for Transport made clear last week, a 12-month discount on all ScotRail season tickets has been introduced, and the flexipass terms have been amended in order to create the equivalent of a 20 per cent discount. The Cabinet Secretary for Transport is already undertaking action to send members relevant information about those changes in order to encourage take-up. The Scottish Government has confirmed that, should UK budget allocations to the Scottish Government improve in future years, we would be open to considering future subsidy to remove peak fares. With regard to the amendment, as I have already made clear, there is always the opportunity for members to question ministers on these matters in the normal way, such as question times, including First Minister’s questions. We will shortly have a Scottish budget to agree, at which point all parties will be able to suggest their priorities and, crucially, set out how they should be paid for. In response to requests from the Greens and the Finance and Public Administration Committee, I confirm my intention to bring forward a proposal to the Parliamentary Bureau for us to debate issues on the long-term sustainability of Scotland’s public finances. Because there are only three weeks until the October recess, and stage 1 and 3 debates, committee debates and Opposition debates are already scheduled in that time, the earliest that I can bring the proposal forward is immediately after recess. On our return from recess, I am happy to schedule that business as quickly as possible and provide Parliament with the opportunity to debate that important issue. Given that we have just had parliamentary debates on both of the policy topics that we are talking about, and that our position on those matters has not changed since then, there is nothing for the Scottish Government to add via a ministerial statement at this time.

Jamie Hepburn

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14009

Business Motion

Members can bring these matters up across a range of opportunities. I will return, momentarily, to the subject matter. As was made clear to Parliament last week, although the Scottish Government remains committed to our free school meals programme, we are unable to roll out universal provision to primary 6 and 7 at the current time, due to the financial position. The Scottish Government continues to advocate for an end to Westminster austerity, which the new UK Government has continued. As was also made clear last week, should the financial situation allow, we will look to take universal provision forward in this parliamentary session. The next stage of the free school meals programme, which has always been an iterative process, is to deliver meals for those who are in receipt of Scottish child payment in primary 6 and 7. I reaffirm that that stage is fully funded and will be delivered in this parliamentary session. The ScotRail peak fares removal pilot was a temporary arrangement, which was announced as part of the 2023-24 budget. The pilot was initially intended to run for six months, and the Government extended it for a further six months—for a total duration of 12 months. It was not, as has been suggested by some, a Scottish Government manifesto commitment. In light of the financial challenges that we face and the level of additional and continuing subsidy that is required to continue the pilot—against its contribution to tackling climate change, with modal shift from car, and tackling child poverty, which are key Scottish Government policies—we have been unable to continue the pilot beyond 27 September. However, as the Cabinet Secretary for Transport made clear last week, a 12-month discount on all ScotRail season tickets has been introduced, and the flexipass terms have been amended in order to create the equivalent of a 20 per cent discount. The Cabinet Secretary for Transport is already undertaking action to send members relevant information about those changes in order to encourage take-up. The Scottish Government has confirmed that, should UK budget allocations to the Scottish Government improve in future years, we would be open to considering future subsidy to remove peak fares. With regard to the amendment, as I have already made clear, there is always the opportunity for members to question ministers on these matters in the normal way, such as question times, including First Minister’s questions. We will shortly have a Scottish budget to agree, at which point all parties will be able to suggest their priorities and, crucially, set out how they should be paid for. In response to requests from the Greens and the Finance and Public Administration Committee, I confirm my intention to bring forward a proposal to the Parliamentary Bureau for us to debate issues on the long-term sustainability of Scotland’s public finances. Because there are only three weeks until the October recess, and stage 1 and 3 debates, committee debates and Opposition debates are already scheduled in that time, the earliest that I can bring the proposal forward is immediately after recess. On our return from recess, I am happy to schedule that business as quickly as possible and provide Parliament with the opportunity to debate that important issue. Given that we have just had parliamentary debates on both of the policy topics that we are talking about, and that our position on those matters has not changed since then, there is nothing for the Scottish Government to add via a ministerial statement at this time.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.19

The first question is, that amendment S6M-14534.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, which seeks to amend motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

The first question is, that amendment S6M-14534.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, which seeks to amend motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.20

No.

Members:

unknown

Business Motion

No.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.21

There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.22

Meeting suspended.

Business Motion

Meeting suspended.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.23

On resuming—

Business Motion

On resuming—

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.24

We come to the vote on amendment S6M-14534.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, which seeks to amend motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme. Members should cast their votes now. The vote is closed.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

We come to the vote on amendment S6M-14534.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, which seeks to amend motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme. Members should cast their votes now. The vote is closed.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.25

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would have voted yes.

Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25076

Business Motion

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would have voted yes.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.26

Thank you, Mr Bibby. We will ensure that that is recorded.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

Thank you, Mr Bibby. We will ensure that that is recorded.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.28

The result of the division on amendment S6M-14534.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, is: For 57, Against 69, Abstentions 0. Amendment disagreed to.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

The result of the division on amendment S6M-14534.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, is: For 57, Against 69, Abstentions 0. Amendment disagreed to.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.1.29

The next question is, that motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Motion agreed to, That the Parliament agrees— (a) the following programme of business— Tuesday 24 September 2024 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Ministerial Statement: Health and Social Care Winter Preparedness Plan 2024-25 followed by Scottish Government Debate: The UK Budget – Scotland’s Priorities followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 25 September 2024 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:Deputy First Minister Responsibilities, Economy and Gaelic;Finance and Local Government followed by Education, Children and Young People Committee Debate: Additional Support for Learning followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 26 September 2024 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister's Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:Net Zero and Energy, and Transport followed by Scottish Government Debate: Scotland Stands with Ukraine followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time Tuesday 1 October 2024 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 2 October 2024 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;Health and Social Care followed by Scottish Labour Party Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.10 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 3 October 2024 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister's Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:Social Justice followed by Scottish Government Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time (b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 23 September 2024, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Business Motion

The next question is, that motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Motion agreed to, That the Parliament agrees— (a) the following programme of business— Tuesday 24 September 2024 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Ministerial Statement: Health and Social Care Winter Preparedness Plan 2024-25 followed by Scottish Government Debate: The UK Budget – Scotland’s Priorities followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 25 September 2024 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:Deputy First Minister Responsibilities, Economy and Gaelic;Finance and Local Government followed by Education, Children and Young People Committee Debate: Additional Support for Learning followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 26 September 2024 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister's Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:Net Zero and Energy, and Transport followed by Scottish Government Debate: Scotland Stands with Ukraine followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time Tuesday 1 October 2024 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 2 October 2024 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;Health and Social Care followed by Scottish Labour Party Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.10 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 3 October 2024 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister's Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:Social Justice followed by Scottish Government Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time (b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 23 September 2024, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.1

The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14524, in the name of John Swinney, on creating a modern, diverse and dynamic Scotland. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons, and I call John Swinney to speak to and move the motion.

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14524, in the name of John Swinney, on creating a modern, diverse and dynamic Scotland. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons, and I call John Swinney to speak to and move the motion.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.2

From my experience of taking part in every year of this Parliament since it was reconvened 25 years ago, one thing is clear—no matter where any of us sit in this chamber, we each stood for election because we care deeply about Scotland’s future. We stood for election because we know that decisions about Scotland’s future are best determined by people who live in Scotland. No matter where we sit in this chamber, we agree that it is our aspiration that Scotland maintains her place in the world as a modern, diverse and dynamic nation. Scotland is the home of poets, painters, engineers, doctors and thinkers throughout the ages. We are a nation on the cutting edge of solving many of the 21st century’s most complex challenges. We are an outward-looking country that values our relationship with our neighbours and friends across the world, and it is in that spirit that I open the debate this afternoon. There exists in Scotland a range of opinions and emotions that we must embrace and discuss openly and respectfully. As I am about to set out, to do so is to maintain the very health of our democracy itself—a democracy that each of us has stood for election to represent. It is a story of the pursuit of self-determination, which found new momentum when, in 1997, the people of Scotland voted overwhelmingly to reconvene the Scottish Parliament. It was clear then, and it is clear now, that Scotland is a nation with all the talent, creativity and ingenuity to chart her own course and to steer her own democratic institutions. The positive impact of devolution is indisputable. For 25 years, devolution has improved the lives of people in Scotland, making this a better and fairer place to live, through policies such as equal marriage; free personal care for older people; minimum unit pricing for alcohol; free bus travel for more than 2 million people; a ban on smoking in public places; land reform; and—something that is very close to my heart—action on child poverty through measures such as the Scottish child payment. Among many other achievements since 2007, this Government has used the powers of devolution to introduce the baby box, which supports every baby born and resident in Scotland to have the best start in life by providing families with essential items that are needed in the first six months of a child’s life. We have also ensured that Scotland-domiciled students continue to receive free university tuition, unlike elsewhere in the United Kingdom, given that we abolished the graduate endowment fee in 2008. We have introduced free prescriptions, which are now £9.90 per item south of the border, which is a huge cost for low-income families. Our council tax reduction scheme reduces the tax bills of more than 450,000 people in Scotland, and free personal and nursing care has been extended to everyone who needs it, regardless of age. There is the affordable housing programme, which has delivered 128,000 affordable homes, the majority of which are for social rent. Of course, there is also the provision of 1,140 hours of funded early learning and childcare. If families were to purchase the funded childcare that is provided by the Scottish Government, it would cost more than £5,500 per eligible child per year. None of that has been achieved by the Scottish Government in isolation, but through the strength of this Parliament and our common commitment to Scotland’s self-determination. Therefore, regardless of where members sit in this chamber, and regardless of whether members view everything that I have listed as successes, I trust that members will agree that people living in Scotland are substantially better off with a Parliament that fights their corner, leads for progress and champions the value of our unique and diverse communities, from every single corner of our country. Each of us in the chamber is extremely fortunate, for the Parliament gives us each a voice, and whenever we enter this building, as unique as Scotland itself, it reminds us of our duty to ensure that the people of Scotland are heard, too. Our modern, diverse and dynamic democracy is our greatest asset. In many ways, 2014 was a year that proved that. The bill on equal marriage passed, which was one of the most progressive equal marriage bills in the world, and it sent out a clear message about who we are as a nation. Turnout for the independence referendum was the highest recorded at any Scotland-wide poll since the advent of universal suffrage. That referendum was preceded by a genuine and serious national debate on the future of our nation. I wish to acknowledge that the national debate was not easy for every voter. There were certainly lively discussions, but maintaining a healthy democracy is hard, because it requires us to navigate our differences respectfully. If that were easy, we would not observe the sharp rises in populism that can emerge in times of economic hardship and uncertainty. However, when I think back to 10 years ago, I can think of no better example of modern democracy in action. Both the Scottish and the United Kingdom Governments published detailed papers of their arguments. There were vigorous campaigns and grass-roots involvement of people across the country, and the historic importance of the decision was reflected in the length of time allowed for both sides to make their cases. The people of Scotland were able to take their decision. My firm view is that the people of Scotland should have the opportunity to take that decision again. This Parliament has confirmed its belief that it should be open to any nation of the United Kingdom to choose to withdraw from the union by democratic means. That is my view, and I believe that that view of this Parliament should be respected. It is clear that, since the 2014 independence referendum and, sadly, since Brexit, which Scotland did not vote for, the powers and autonomy of the Scottish Parliament have been eroded. They have been eroded, on the excuse of Brexit, to enable Westminster to overrule this Parliament. The people of this country who voted for this Parliament to have the powers that it does were not asked whether they wanted the powers to be eroded.

The First Minister (John Swinney)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

From my experience of taking part in every year of this Parliament since it was reconvened 25 years ago, one thing is clear—no matter where any of us sit in this chamber, we each stood for election because we care deeply about Scotland’s future. We stood for election because we know that decisions about Scotland’s future are best determined by people who live in Scotland. No matter where we sit in this chamber, we agree that it is our aspiration that Scotland maintains her place in the world as a modern, diverse and dynamic nation. Scotland is the home of poets, painters, engineers, doctors and thinkers throughout the ages. We are a nation on the cutting edge of solving many of the 21st century’s most complex challenges. We are an outward-looking country that values our relationship with our neighbours and friends across the world, and it is in that spirit that I open the debate this afternoon. There exists in Scotland a range of opinions and emotions that we must embrace and discuss openly and respectfully. As I am about to set out, to do so is to maintain the very health of our democracy itself—a democracy that each of us has stood for election to represent. It is a story of the pursuit of self-determination, which found new momentum when, in 1997, the people of Scotland voted overwhelmingly to reconvene the Scottish Parliament. It was clear then, and it is clear now, that Scotland is a nation with all the talent, creativity and ingenuity to chart her own course and to steer her own democratic institutions. The positive impact of devolution is indisputable. For 25 years, devolution has improved the lives of people in Scotland, making this a better and fairer place to live, through policies such as equal marriage; free personal care for older people; minimum unit pricing for alcohol; free bus travel for more than 2 million people; a ban on smoking in public places; land reform; and—something that is very close to my heart—action on child poverty through measures such as the Scottish child payment. Among many other achievements since 2007, this Government has used the powers of devolution to introduce the baby box, which supports every baby born and resident in Scotland to have the best start in life by providing families with essential items that are needed in the first six months of a child’s life. We have also ensured that Scotland-domiciled students continue to receive free university tuition, unlike elsewhere in the United Kingdom, given that we abolished the graduate endowment fee in 2008. We have introduced free prescriptions, which are now £9.90 per item south of the border, which is a huge cost for low-income families. Our council tax reduction scheme reduces the tax bills of more than 450,000 people in Scotland, and free personal and nursing care has been extended to everyone who needs it, regardless of age. There is the affordable housing programme, which has delivered 128,000 affordable homes, the majority of which are for social rent. Of course, there is also the provision of 1,140 hours of funded early learning and childcare. If families were to purchase the funded childcare that is provided by the Scottish Government, it would cost more than £5,500 per eligible child per year. None of that has been achieved by the Scottish Government in isolation, but through the strength of this Parliament and our common commitment to Scotland’s self-determination. Therefore, regardless of where members sit in this chamber, and regardless of whether members view everything that I have listed as successes, I trust that members will agree that people living in Scotland are substantially better off with a Parliament that fights their corner, leads for progress and champions the value of our unique and diverse communities, from every single corner of our country. Each of us in the chamber is extremely fortunate, for the Parliament gives us each a voice, and whenever we enter this building, as unique as Scotland itself, it reminds us of our duty to ensure that the people of Scotland are heard, too. Our modern, diverse and dynamic democracy is our greatest asset. In many ways, 2014 was a year that proved that. The bill on equal marriage passed, which was one of the most progressive equal marriage bills in the world, and it sent out a clear message about who we are as a nation. Turnout for the independence referendum was the highest recorded at any Scotland-wide poll since the advent of universal suffrage. That referendum was preceded by a genuine and serious national debate on the future of our nation. I wish to acknowledge that the national debate was not easy for every voter. There were certainly lively discussions, but maintaining a healthy democracy is hard, because it requires us to navigate our differences respectfully. If that were easy, we would not observe the sharp rises in populism that can emerge in times of economic hardship and uncertainty. However, when I think back to 10 years ago, I can think of no better example of modern democracy in action. Both the Scottish and the United Kingdom Governments published detailed papers of their arguments. There were vigorous campaigns and grass-roots involvement of people across the country, and the historic importance of the decision was reflected in the length of time allowed for both sides to make their cases. The people of Scotland were able to take their decision. My firm view is that the people of Scotland should have the opportunity to take that decision again. This Parliament has confirmed its belief that it should be open to any nation of the United Kingdom to choose to withdraw from the union by democratic means. That is my view, and I believe that that view of this Parliament should be respected. It is clear that, since the 2014 independence referendum and, sadly, since Brexit, which Scotland did not vote for, the powers and autonomy of the Scottish Parliament have been eroded. They have been eroded, on the excuse of Brexit, to enable Westminster to overrule this Parliament. The people of this country who voted for this Parliament to have the powers that it does were not asked whether they wanted the powers to be eroded.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.3

As the First Minister is speaking about powers, will he outline how many powers he has been offered by the UK Government but has returned to it because the Scottish National Party Government was not ready to take them on?

Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

As the First Minister is speaking about powers, will he outline how many powers he has been offered by the UK Government but has returned to it because the Scottish National Party Government was not ready to take them on?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.4

It is clear from what I have set out so far, and from my comments earlier today, that, since the independence referendum in 2014, there has been a strengthening of some of the powers of this Parliament on tax, which we have used. Mr Ross complains about the fact that we have used our tax powers. We have used the powers on welfare, for example, with the Scottish child payment, which is helping to keep 100,000 children out of poverty. Mr Ross voted against the budget that provided for that, so he does not exactly have a strong argument to stand on. The point that I am concerned about—

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

It is clear from what I have set out so far, and from my comments earlier today, that, since the independence referendum in 2014, there has been a strengthening of some of the powers of this Parliament on tax, which we have used. Mr Ross complains about the fact that we have used our tax powers. We have used the powers on welfare, for example, with the Scottish child payment, which is helping to keep 100,000 children out of poverty. Mr Ross voted against the budget that provided for that, so he does not exactly have a strong argument to stand on. The point that I am concerned about—

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.5

It is the powers that—

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

It is the powers that—

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.6

The powers that I am concerned about are the powers of this Parliament that the people of Scotland voted for in a democratic referendum in 1997. Those powers have been eroded by legislation that Mr Ross voted for in the House of Commons. The weakening of our powers—this is the point that I make to Mr Ross—should concern every one of us here, for it is our duty to ensure that this Parliament’s powers to represent Scotland’s will and Scotland’s aspirations should be protected.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

The powers that I am concerned about are the powers of this Parliament that the people of Scotland voted for in a democratic referendum in 1997. Those powers have been eroded by legislation that Mr Ross voted for in the House of Commons. The weakening of our powers—this is the point that I make to Mr Ross—should concern every one of us here, for it is our duty to ensure that this Parliament’s powers to represent Scotland’s will and Scotland’s aspirations should be protected.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.7

I will try a different question, then. Will the First Minister tell this Parliament one power that the UK Government has taken away from the Scottish Government?

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

I will try a different question, then. Will the First Minister tell this Parliament one power that the UK Government has taken away from the Scottish Government?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.8

The use of the internal market—

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

The use of the internal market—

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.9

One power that has been taken away.

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

One power that has been taken away.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.10

Mr Ross.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

Mr Ross.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.11

I will explain to Mr Ross exactly what has happened, if he is not familiar with what he has voted for. This Parliament had exclusive power over a range of competences devolved by the United Kingdom Parliament. That was what was put to people in the 1997 referendum, and it was supported by three to one, if my memory serves me correctly. However, the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 gives the UK Government the ability to legislate on and act in those areas. That is called the erosion of the powers of the Scottish Parliament. That is before I get to the point that, between 1997 and 2019, when there were Labour, Conservative and Conservative-Liberal coalitions in Westminster, the Sewel convention was never ignored on any occasion. However, following that period, the Conservative Government ignored, superseded and countermanded that on countless occasions, legislating over the heads of this democratically elected institution. That should be a matter of the greatest concern to the Conservatives, as it is to me today. Scotland has prospered with the use of the devolved powers that we have at our disposal. In the aftermath of the 1997 referendum, Scotland demonstrated that we had the capability to assume those powers. Since then, Scotland’s economy has outperformed the UK in growth, in gross domestic product per person, in growth in productivity, in earnings growth and in foreign direct investment. We have an impressive record on GDP per capita, which has grown faster than the UK’s since 2007. Since 2007, productivity in Scotland has grown at an average rate faster than that in the rest of the United Kingdom. When we look at the evidence from comparable independent European states—many of which are the same size as Scotland—we can see that they perform better than the United Kingdom. For me, that poses the question, “What is the opportunity for Scotland to move forward?” The opportunity for Scotland is to ensure that we deploy the strength and capability of our country to the maximum effect for the future of our country, ensuring that decisions made in Scotland by the Scottish Parliament are respected and able to be effective across all the areas of policy that any Government would take for granted. I believe that an independent Scotland should be able to rejoin the European Union and pursue the prospects of growth and opportunity that so many of our people and our businesses want to enjoy. I believe that an independent Scotland could deliver a fairer and more welcoming system of migration, helping the economy to grow while addressing depopulation challenges and supporting vital public services. I believe that an independent Scotland would remove, sensibly and safely, nuclear weapons from Scotland’s shores for good, and that an independent Scotland would be able to benefit from the terms of a written constitution and from investment in our public services, using our wealth to secure the future of our country. All of that is possible, based on the experience of devolution and Scottish self-determination, and on the principle that decisions taken about this country are best taken by the people who choose to live here and those who are elected to act on their behalf. That is the foundation of the argument for Scottish independence. It is the foundation of what people have experienced with devolution. It is urgent and essential that Scotland becomes independent, and the motion in my name sets out that case. I move, That the Parliament agrees that the Scottish Government should use all its powers to build a modern, diverse, dynamic nation, and further agrees that it is only with all the powers of a normal independent nation that Scotland would truly be enabled to take its own decisions to fully meet the needs of the people of Scotland and create their best future.

The First Minister

uk.org.publicwhip/person/10581

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

I will explain to Mr Ross exactly what has happened, if he is not familiar with what he has voted for. This Parliament had exclusive power over a range of competences devolved by the United Kingdom Parliament. That was what was put to people in the 1997 referendum, and it was supported by three to one, if my memory serves me correctly. However, the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 gives the UK Government the ability to legislate on and act in those areas. That is called the erosion of the powers of the Scottish Parliament. That is before I get to the point that, between 1997 and 2019, when there were Labour, Conservative and Conservative-Liberal coalitions in Westminster, the Sewel convention was never ignored on any occasion. However, following that period, the Conservative Government ignored, superseded and countermanded that on countless occasions, legislating over the heads of this democratically elected institution. That should be a matter of the greatest concern to the Conservatives, as it is to me today. Scotland has prospered with the use of the devolved powers that we have at our disposal. In the aftermath of the 1997 referendum, Scotland demonstrated that we had the capability to assume those powers. Since then, Scotland’s economy has outperformed the UK in growth, in gross domestic product per person, in growth in productivity, in earnings growth and in foreign direct investment. We have an impressive record on GDP per capita, which has grown faster than the UK’s since 2007. Since 2007, productivity in Scotland has grown at an average rate faster than that in the rest of the United Kingdom. When we look at the evidence from comparable independent European states—many of which are the same size as Scotland—we can see that they perform better than the United Kingdom. For me, that poses the question, “What is the opportunity for Scotland to move forward?” The opportunity for Scotland is to ensure that we deploy the strength and capability of our country to the maximum effect for the future of our country, ensuring that decisions made in Scotland by the Scottish Parliament are respected and able to be effective across all the areas of policy that any Government would take for granted. I believe that an independent Scotland should be able to rejoin the European Union and pursue the prospects of growth and opportunity that so many of our people and our businesses want to enjoy. I believe that an independent Scotland could deliver a fairer and more welcoming system of migration, helping the economy to grow while addressing depopulation challenges and supporting vital public services. I believe that an independent Scotland would remove, sensibly and safely, nuclear weapons from Scotland’s shores for good, and that an independent Scotland would be able to benefit from the terms of a written constitution and from investment in our public services, using our wealth to secure the future of our country. All of that is possible, based on the experience of devolution and Scottish self-determination, and on the principle that decisions taken about this country are best taken by the people who choose to live here and those who are elected to act on their behalf. That is the foundation of the argument for Scottish independence. It is the foundation of what people have experienced with devolution. It is urgent and essential that Scotland becomes independent, and the motion in my name sets out that case. I move, That the Parliament agrees that the Scottish Government should use all its powers to build a modern, diverse, dynamic nation, and further agrees that it is only with all the powers of a normal independent nation that Scotland would truly be enabled to take its own decisions to fully meet the needs of the people of Scotland and create their best future.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.12

I call Douglas Ross to speak to and to move amendment S6M-14524.4.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

I call Douglas Ross to speak to and to move amendment S6M-14524.4.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.13

I want to start by imagining a different decade to the one that we have had—not a different outcome on 18 September 2014, because the people of Scotland voted by a clear margin to remain part of the United Kingdom. No—I want to imagine what would have happened if John Swinney and his fellow nationalists had been true to their word and respected the result, and if they had used the past 10 years and the powers of this Parliament to focus on improving the lives of every man, woman and child in this country. Sadly, they did not. Even a decade on, we are not discussing what this Parliament or this Government could do to benefit our constituents. No—we are, yet again, debating independence. Unlike the nationalists, I refuse to talk Scotland down. [Interruption.]

Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

I want to start by imagining a different decade to the one that we have had—not a different outcome on 18 September 2014, because the people of Scotland voted by a clear margin to remain part of the United Kingdom. No—I want to imagine what would have happened if John Swinney and his fellow nationalists had been true to their word and respected the result, and if they had used the past 10 years and the powers of this Parliament to focus on improving the lives of every man, woman and child in this country. Sadly, they did not. Even a decade on, we are not discussing what this Parliament or this Government could do to benefit our constituents. No—we are, yet again, debating independence. Unlike the nationalists, I refuse to talk Scotland down. [Interruption.]

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.14

Let us hear Mr Ross.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

Let us hear Mr Ross.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.15

I believe that Scotland is a modern, dynamic and diverse country—that is set out in my amendment. However, the SNP does not believe that; that is clear from John Swinney’s motion. What a brutal self-assessment of its 17 years in office and of how it has failed this country. Where there are failures and challenges facing all of us in Scotland, they have been caused not by the decision of millions of Scots to remain in the United Kingdom, but by the SNP—by the nationalists in Government over the past 17 years. They have been caused by a distracted nationalist Government that has spent its time in office obsessing about the constitution rather than focusing on the real priorities for Scots.

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

I believe that Scotland is a modern, dynamic and diverse country—that is set out in my amendment. However, the SNP does not believe that; that is clear from John Swinney’s motion. What a brutal self-assessment of its 17 years in office and of how it has failed this country. Where there are failures and challenges facing all of us in Scotland, they have been caused not by the decision of millions of Scots to remain in the United Kingdom, but by the SNP—by the nationalists in Government over the past 17 years. They have been caused by a distracted nationalist Government that has spent its time in office obsessing about the constitution rather than focusing on the real priorities for Scots.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.16

I am a big fan of being true to your word. What would have happened if the Conservatives had been true to their word, when they said, “Vote no to stay in the EU, vote no to be an equal partner in the UK, vote no to be more prosperous”? What happened to those promises?

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic (Kate Forbes)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25504

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

I am a big fan of being true to your word. What would have happened if the Conservatives had been true to their word, when they said, “Vote no to stay in the EU, vote no to be an equal partner in the UK, vote no to be more prosperous”? What happened to those promises?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.17

I am sorry, but the Deputy First Minister cannot pick and choose. “One choice” is what the nationalists told us in 2014. They said that it was a “once-in-a-generation” opportunity and a “gold-plated referendum”, which they would respect—but they have spent the past decade refusing to do so. I was speaking about the impact that that has had. Let us look at Scotland after almost two decades of the SNP in charge. We are a country where alcohol and drugs kill thousands of people every year, and where educational standards continue to fall and violence in our classrooms continues to rise. And, yes, Neil Gray—our NHS is in crisis. He is shaking his head—

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

I am sorry, but the Deputy First Minister cannot pick and choose. “One choice” is what the nationalists told us in 2014. They said that it was a “once-in-a-generation” opportunity and a “gold-plated referendum”, which they would respect—but they have spent the past decade refusing to do so. I was speaking about the impact that that has had. Let us look at Scotland after almost two decades of the SNP in charge. We are a country where alcohol and drugs kill thousands of people every year, and where educational standards continue to fall and violence in our classrooms continues to rise. And, yes, Neil Gray—our NHS is in crisis. He is shaking his head—

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.18

Always speak through the chair, please.

The Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

Always speak through the chair, please.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.19

I cannot believe that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care does not believe that our health service is in crisis. I am happy to give way if he can tell us why it is not, when one in six of our fellow Scots is on an NHS waiting list.

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

I cannot believe that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care does not believe that our health service is in crisis. I am happy to give way if he can tell us why it is not, when one in six of our fellow Scots is on an NHS waiting list.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.20

I refuse to talk down the work of the incredible staff and committed workforce in our health service. The First Minister provided a list of the Government’s interventions over our time in government, but I will pick just one—free prescriptions. The Trussell Trust has assessed that 68 per cent of people on universal credit in the rest of the UK cannot afford to pick up their prescriptions. Can Douglas Ross not understand the value—from not just a social perspective but a health perspective—of our investment in free prescriptions?

The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care (Neil Gray)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25293

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

I refuse to talk down the work of the incredible staff and committed workforce in our health service. The First Minister provided a list of the Government’s interventions over our time in government, but I will pick just one—free prescriptions. The Trussell Trust has assessed that 68 per cent of people on universal credit in the rest of the UK cannot afford to pick up their prescriptions. Can Douglas Ross not understand the value—from not just a social perspective but a health perspective—of our investment in free prescriptions?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.2.21

Can the health secretary not understand that we have the highest number of drug deaths not just in the United Kingdom but across Europe and that one in six people are on an NHS waiting list? That is a crisis. The fact that he refuses or is unwilling to accept that will be a bitter blow to people watching this debate who are on an NHS waiting list, waiting for treatment or an appointment, and who just do not get it, because of the Government’s obsession with independence. Far from accepting the result of the referendum, the SNP has, in every year since the vote did not go the way that it wanted, called for a rerun. It is as though the first vote did not count and was a proxy one, so the SNP could come back to the issue later. It is as though Scottish voters somehow did not understand or realise the choice that they faced. Democracy is not about asking the same question time and again until people get the result that they want. It is about putting forward arguments, trusting the people with the decision and then accepting their verdict.

Douglas Ross

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25531

Creating a Modern, Diverse and Dynamic Scotland

Can the health secretary not understand that we have the highest number of drug deaths not just in the United Kingdom but across Europe and that one in six people are on an NHS waiting list? That is a crisis. The fact that he refuses or is unwilling to accept that will be a bitter blow to people watching this debate who are on an NHS waiting list, waiting for treatment or an appointment, and who just do not get it, because of the Government’s obsession with independence. Far from accepting the result of the referendum, the SNP has, in every year since the vote did not go the way that it wanted, called for a rerun. It is as though the first vote did not count and was a proxy one, so the SNP could come back to the issue later. It is as though Scottish voters somehow did not understand or realise the choice that they faced. Democracy is not about asking the same question time and again until people get the result that they want. It is about putting forward arguments, trusting the people with the decision and then accepting their verdict.