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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.47

The bill does not define “official status”. How would the member define it?

Liam Kerr

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25515

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

The bill does not define “official status”. How would the member define it?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.48

I would like to use amendments at stage 2 to explore the issue of defining what the Scots language is. There are umbrella terms. In his evidence to the committee, Bruce Eunson said that the umbrella term “Scots” includes variants from across Scotland that differ depending on whether you are in Stranraer or Stromness. As we move forward, we could look at how the bill could further define the language. That point was also included in the evidence submitted by Time for Inclusive Education.

Emma Harper

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25511

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I would like to use amendments at stage 2 to explore the issue of defining what the Scots language is. There are umbrella terms. In his evidence to the committee, Bruce Eunson said that the umbrella term “Scots” includes variants from across Scotland that differ depending on whether you are in Stranraer or Stromness. As we move forward, we could look at how the bill could further define the language. That point was also included in the evidence submitted by Time for Inclusive Education.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.49

Will the member accept an intervention?

Stephen Kerr

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25696

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Will the member accept an intervention?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.50

I need to carry on. Section 27 of the bill requires the Scottish ministers to “prepare a Scots language strategy” and sets out the required content of that strategy, along with the consultation and publication requirements and timescales for its preparation, review and revision. The provision in the bill to prepare that strategy will give importance to those priorities and to the work that Scots bodies and other authorities do to make progress on them. I have a couple more points to make. Section 31 of the bill requires the Scottish ministers to “promote, facilitate and support Scots language education in schools”, which means that education authorities must also do that in the schools that they manage. There have already been some fantastic examples of that in Dumfries and Galloway, including at Troqueer primary school in Dumfries. In preparing that guidance, the Scottish ministers must consult interested persons, who might include, for example, the Scots Language Centre—which has already been mentioned—Scots Hoose or Yaldi Books. That work will ensure that young people are exposed to Scots from an early age, and it should help to tackle some of the stigma surrounding the Scots language. I have one ask—this issue was raised by the Open University—which is that the bill should place a statutory duty on public bodies in relation to their use of Scots, as is already the case for Gaelic. I would welcome further discussion of that with the cabinet secretary. It is right that we are now providing greater recognition of the Scots language in education. As I said to the cabinet secretary, the bill is important in recognising how the history, heritage and culture of all our communities relate to Scots. I will support the bill at stage 1, and I look forward to working with the cabinet secretary as we move forward.

Emma Harper

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25511

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I need to carry on. Section 27 of the bill requires the Scottish ministers to “prepare a Scots language strategy” and sets out the required content of that strategy, along with the consultation and publication requirements and timescales for its preparation, review and revision. The provision in the bill to prepare that strategy will give importance to those priorities and to the work that Scots bodies and other authorities do to make progress on them. I have a couple more points to make. Section 31 of the bill requires the Scottish ministers to “promote, facilitate and support Scots language education in schools”, which means that education authorities must also do that in the schools that they manage. There have already been some fantastic examples of that in Dumfries and Galloway, including at Troqueer primary school in Dumfries. In preparing that guidance, the Scottish ministers must consult interested persons, who might include, for example, the Scots Language Centre—which has already been mentioned—Scots Hoose or Yaldi Books. That work will ensure that young people are exposed to Scots from an early age, and it should help to tackle some of the stigma surrounding the Scots language. I have one ask—this issue was raised by the Open University—which is that the bill should place a statutory duty on public bodies in relation to their use of Scots, as is already the case for Gaelic. I would welcome further discussion of that with the cabinet secretary. It is right that we are now providing greater recognition of the Scots language in education. As I said to the cabinet secretary, the bill is important in recognising how the history, heritage and culture of all our communities relate to Scots. I will support the bill at stage 1, and I look forward to working with the cabinet secretary as we move forward.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.51

I gently remind members who want to make an intervention that it would be helpful if they could press the appropriate button. That will not guarantee that their intervention is taken, but it certainly helps those who are joining us online.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I gently remind members who want to make an intervention that it would be helpful if they could press the appropriate button. That will not guarantee that their intervention is taken, but it certainly helps those who are joining us online.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.52

Gaelic and Scots are part of the historical and cultural fabric of this country. It is estimated that some form of Gaelic has been spoken in Scotland since the fourth century. Gaelic is in our songs and place names and our national bard wrote in Scots, but those languages are not confined to history and culture. They are living and are used daily across Scotland, but they must be supported if they are to thrive. Gaelic, in particular, is in a worrying state. A study by the University of the Highlands and Islands warned that it could die as a living language within decades. Although the number of people with some understanding of Gaelic has risen, according to the most recent census, the number of people who speak it in the Western Isles, where it is used most, has fallen. The struggle of the Gaelic language, despite Government initiatives over the years, is linked to many other issues that members have raised today. A lack of job opportunities in Gaelic-speaking areas and of suitable housing in rural and island communities means that people who grow up speaking Gaelic have no choice but to leave. Much of the housing in those areas is older and less energy efficient, which makes living there more expensive. Those issues all tie in with the wider depopulation that is taking place in rural Scotland. We have to get this right, so the current scope of the bill is disappointing. It focuses largely on education, but the challenges that are faced by Gaelic and Scots are multifaceted. Of course, a bill cannot be everything at once, but we must recognise the issues. Stakeholders have welcomed the proposed creation of Scots and Gaelic strategies, but we must work to ensure that ministers are able to create strategies that are genuinely consequential. Earlier this year, the First Minister said that the Scottish Government published too many strategies and that it should focus on delivery. Currently, however, Gaelic and Scots strategies will not even be delivered until 2028. We cannot afford to waste time. Expanding access to education is undoubtedly important. Last week, my colleague Michael Marra and I met Sabhal Mòr Ostaig—a Gaelic college based in Skye. We were told that although many students receive part of their education in Gaelic, they lose out as they move on to other education providers who cannot give lessons in Gaelic. Ensuring the provision of Gaelic education in primary and secondary schools as well as in further education is key to ensuring that the language has a strong future. However, education will mean little if young people cannot find a home or a job in areas where their language is spoken.

Foysol Choudhury (Lothian) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25990

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Gaelic and Scots are part of the historical and cultural fabric of this country. It is estimated that some form of Gaelic has been spoken in Scotland since the fourth century. Gaelic is in our songs and place names and our national bard wrote in Scots, but those languages are not confined to history and culture. They are living and are used daily across Scotland, but they must be supported if they are to thrive. Gaelic, in particular, is in a worrying state. A study by the University of the Highlands and Islands warned that it could die as a living language within decades. Although the number of people with some understanding of Gaelic has risen, according to the most recent census, the number of people who speak it in the Western Isles, where it is used most, has fallen. The struggle of the Gaelic language, despite Government initiatives over the years, is linked to many other issues that members have raised today. A lack of job opportunities in Gaelic-speaking areas and of suitable housing in rural and island communities means that people who grow up speaking Gaelic have no choice but to leave. Much of the housing in those areas is older and less energy efficient, which makes living there more expensive. Those issues all tie in with the wider depopulation that is taking place in rural Scotland. We have to get this right, so the current scope of the bill is disappointing. It focuses largely on education, but the challenges that are faced by Gaelic and Scots are multifaceted. Of course, a bill cannot be everything at once, but we must recognise the issues. Stakeholders have welcomed the proposed creation of Scots and Gaelic strategies, but we must work to ensure that ministers are able to create strategies that are genuinely consequential. Earlier this year, the First Minister said that the Scottish Government published too many strategies and that it should focus on delivery. Currently, however, Gaelic and Scots strategies will not even be delivered until 2028. We cannot afford to waste time. Expanding access to education is undoubtedly important. Last week, my colleague Michael Marra and I met Sabhal Mòr Ostaig—a Gaelic college based in Skye. We were told that although many students receive part of their education in Gaelic, they lose out as they move on to other education providers who cannot give lessons in Gaelic. Ensuring the provision of Gaelic education in primary and secondary schools as well as in further education is key to ensuring that the language has a strong future. However, education will mean little if young people cannot find a home or a job in areas where their language is spoken.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.53

I do not necessarily disagree with the member’s remarks, but he talks about the need for more teachers in order for Gaelic to be taught. Where is he going to get the teachers from?

Liam Kerr

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25515

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I do not necessarily disagree with the member’s remarks, but he talks about the need for more teachers in order for Gaelic to be taught. Where is he going to get the teachers from?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.54

I will leave it for the Scottish Government to tell us where the teachers will come from, because there are shortages of teachers in every sector. The bill also contains provisions to give local authorities the power to designate areas of linguistic significance. The proposed recognition of areas where Gaelic is spoken is welcome, but the bill is light on details of what that will entail. The financial memorandum states that there will be no costs associated with the bill. The bill proposes that ministers be given powers to create standards and requirements for education authorities in relation to Gaelic, but the responsibilities to be placed on local authorities should be clarified. We must not have another bill that gives more responsibilities to councils that are already struggling, but which does not give them the resources to meet those additional responsibilities. Gaelic and Scots should not be reserved for train signs and tourists. They are living languages, but they face threats from many different directions. At present, the bill does not account for those threats, but we must not miss this opportunity to safeguard Scottish culture. I hope that Scottish Labour can work with other parties to amend the bill to ensure that it responds to the pressing challenges that Gaelic and Scots face.

Foysol Choudhury

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25990

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I will leave it for the Scottish Government to tell us where the teachers will come from, because there are shortages of teachers in every sector. The bill also contains provisions to give local authorities the power to designate areas of linguistic significance. The proposed recognition of areas where Gaelic is spoken is welcome, but the bill is light on details of what that will entail. The financial memorandum states that there will be no costs associated with the bill. The bill proposes that ministers be given powers to create standards and requirements for education authorities in relation to Gaelic, but the responsibilities to be placed on local authorities should be clarified. We must not have another bill that gives more responsibilities to councils that are already struggling, but which does not give them the resources to meet those additional responsibilities. Gaelic and Scots should not be reserved for train signs and tourists. They are living languages, but they face threats from many different directions. At present, the bill does not account for those threats, but we must not miss this opportunity to safeguard Scottish culture. I hope that Scottish Labour can work with other parties to amend the bill to ensure that it responds to the pressing challenges that Gaelic and Scots face.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.55

I will follow the lead of my colleague Liam Kerr and vote for the bill at stage 1, but Foysol Choudhury hit the nail on the head when he talked about the lack of any consequential strategies coming out of this Government. Therein lies my number 1 concern about the bill. I believe that, despite efforts by SNP members to argue the contrary, much of what we see in the bill is symbolic. George Adam could not name a single thing that pertains to the bill that would make a tangible difference to what actually happens. It is making that difference that really matters. I am completely up front in saying that I support the foundational principle of the bill, which is about securing the viability of Gaelic. I compliment the Deputy First Minister, because her comments to the committee about the importance of Gaelic continuing to be spoken, which are featured in the report, were eloquently made. I also support the desire and the right of Gaelic speakers to live their lives entirely using the Gaelic language if they want to do so. However, when the Deputy First Minister says that she hopes that the bill will achieve that, I think that she is being overly optimistic, because I cannot see how. I therefore thank my colleagues on the Education, Children and Young People Committee for their report on the bill. They get to the nub of many of the issues, and we should all take note of their concerns, not the least of which was the unwillingness of local authorities and public bodies, including the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers, to come to the committee to give evidence. That concerns me, as it has concerned the members of the committee, because, given the duties that will be placed on those bodies by the bill, it would have been advantageous to all of us, as lawmakers, to have heard evidence from them. What will change if the bill becomes legislation? I do not doubt the good intentions of the Deputy First Minister—I think that she knows that I respect her enormously—nor, indeed, those of the Scottish Government, in producing the bill. However, frankly, it reads like any other framework bill that has come before the Parliament this session. It will lay obligations on ministers, local authorities and public bodies that will not move the dial one bit. I am looking for tangible deliverables. I cannot see anything in the bill that comes remotely close to one of those. We are cramming the statute book with ever more framework bills that are nebulous. We need to get much more specific. There is no need for us as a Parliament to go on producing ever more legislation that adds to the statute book but lies unimplemented because it is unimplementable. The bill places additional responsibilities on local authorities in particular, at a time when there are huge pressures on the public finances. On behalf of the committee, Sue Webber described the limitations of the financial memorandum. If the SNP Government gives local authorities licence to increase council tax in the coming year by double-digit percentages, there will still be a paucity of funding for councils to carry out even the most basic services. I do not think that the Deputy First Minister wants a bill to support the Gaelic language to be yet another of the tick-box exercises for which her SNP Government has become renowned.

Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25696

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I will follow the lead of my colleague Liam Kerr and vote for the bill at stage 1, but Foysol Choudhury hit the nail on the head when he talked about the lack of any consequential strategies coming out of this Government. Therein lies my number 1 concern about the bill. I believe that, despite efforts by SNP members to argue the contrary, much of what we see in the bill is symbolic. George Adam could not name a single thing that pertains to the bill that would make a tangible difference to what actually happens. It is making that difference that really matters. I am completely up front in saying that I support the foundational principle of the bill, which is about securing the viability of Gaelic. I compliment the Deputy First Minister, because her comments to the committee about the importance of Gaelic continuing to be spoken, which are featured in the report, were eloquently made. I also support the desire and the right of Gaelic speakers to live their lives entirely using the Gaelic language if they want to do so. However, when the Deputy First Minister says that she hopes that the bill will achieve that, I think that she is being overly optimistic, because I cannot see how. I therefore thank my colleagues on the Education, Children and Young People Committee for their report on the bill. They get to the nub of many of the issues, and we should all take note of their concerns, not the least of which was the unwillingness of local authorities and public bodies, including the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers, to come to the committee to give evidence. That concerns me, as it has concerned the members of the committee, because, given the duties that will be placed on those bodies by the bill, it would have been advantageous to all of us, as lawmakers, to have heard evidence from them. What will change if the bill becomes legislation? I do not doubt the good intentions of the Deputy First Minister—I think that she knows that I respect her enormously—nor, indeed, those of the Scottish Government, in producing the bill. However, frankly, it reads like any other framework bill that has come before the Parliament this session. It will lay obligations on ministers, local authorities and public bodies that will not move the dial one bit. I am looking for tangible deliverables. I cannot see anything in the bill that comes remotely close to one of those. We are cramming the statute book with ever more framework bills that are nebulous. We need to get much more specific. There is no need for us as a Parliament to go on producing ever more legislation that adds to the statute book but lies unimplemented because it is unimplementable. The bill places additional responsibilities on local authorities in particular, at a time when there are huge pressures on the public finances. On behalf of the committee, Sue Webber described the limitations of the financial memorandum. If the SNP Government gives local authorities licence to increase council tax in the coming year by double-digit percentages, there will still be a paucity of funding for councils to carry out even the most basic services. I do not think that the Deputy First Minister wants a bill to support the Gaelic language to be yet another of the tick-box exercises for which her SNP Government has become renowned.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.56

I agree with Stephen Kerr that I do not want such a thing. The issue weighs heavily on my shoulders and, indeed, on those of everybody in this room. I reference again my open invitation to his colleagues that, in advance of stage 2, there will be an opportunity for amendment, to ensure that the bill has the confidence of every member.

Kate Forbes

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25504

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I agree with Stephen Kerr that I do not want such a thing. The issue weighs heavily on my shoulders and, indeed, on those of everybody in this room. I reference again my open invitation to his colleagues that, in advance of stage 2, there will be an opportunity for amendment, to ensure that the bill has the confidence of every member.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.57

I appreciate not only what the Deputy First Minister says but where she is coming from, and I think that she will find colleagues across the parties who are willing to work with her on that basis. I turn to the Scots language. Frankly, I am with Liam Kerr, because I do not believe that there is only one Scots language. The committee report highlights time and again that there are so many variants and dialects of Scots that to talk about a single Scots language does not reflect the real-life experiences of any of us. The Scots language is, fundamentally, an oral tradition, and is highly localised. My wife comes from Ayr and I come from Angus, and we use completely different Scots words and phrases for the same thing. We have always enjoyed that aspect of our language, and we celebrate it.

Stephen Kerr

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25696

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I appreciate not only what the Deputy First Minister says but where she is coming from, and I think that she will find colleagues across the parties who are willing to work with her on that basis. I turn to the Scots language. Frankly, I am with Liam Kerr, because I do not believe that there is only one Scots language. The committee report highlights time and again that there are so many variants and dialects of Scots that to talk about a single Scots language does not reflect the real-life experiences of any of us. The Scots language is, fundamentally, an oral tradition, and is highly localised. My wife comes from Ayr and I come from Angus, and we use completely different Scots words and phrases for the same thing. We have always enjoyed that aspect of our language, and we celebrate it.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.58

My understanding is that the language of the Parliament in Scotland was Scots right up to the 16th century; then it was decided that it should be Latin. It is not an oral tradition. Will Stephen Kerr not consider the history and the heritage of the evolution of the Scots language?

Emma Harper

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25511

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

My understanding is that the language of the Parliament in Scotland was Scots right up to the 16th century; then it was decided that it should be Latin. It is not an oral tradition. Will Stephen Kerr not consider the history and the heritage of the evolution of the Scots language?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.59

I say to Emma Harper that we are living in not the 16th century but the 21st. I am talking about the experience of the people who live in Scotland today. The Scots language thrives because it is an oral tradition. It is part of the celebration of our Scottishness and, frankly, it is enjoyable because of that. The fact that it is an oral tradition really matters. [Interruption.] Emma Harper is shouting at me. She is welcome to interject again if she wishes to.

Stephen Kerr

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25696

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I say to Emma Harper that we are living in not the 16th century but the 21st. I am talking about the experience of the people who live in Scotland today. The Scots language thrives because it is an oral tradition. It is part of the celebration of our Scottishness and, frankly, it is enjoyable because of that. The fact that it is an oral tradition really matters. [Interruption.] Emma Harper is shouting at me. She is welcome to interject again if she wishes to.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.60

No, she is not, because we are running out of time, Mr Kerr.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

No, she is not, because we are running out of time, Mr Kerr.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.61

I had a look at the Scots language version of the committee’s report. We do ourselves no favours by spending taxpayers’ money in creating such documents, which I do not believe for one minute that people are going to read other than to mock. I do not like that. We can get a pretty clear idea of what someone is speaking about when we listen to them speak in their local variant of Scots, but writing it changes its nature, making it—to my mind—a bit laboured and bogus. Let us ensure that we are doing the right things to underpin the take-up of Gaelic, and not turn people away from it by imposing it in places where it is not even a tenth language. We should not be plastering public buildings, signs and vehicles with Gaelic in areas where it was never traditionally spoken. That only creates irritation among the public about their taxes being pointlessly spent.

Stephen Kerr

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25696

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I had a look at the Scots language version of the committee’s report. We do ourselves no favours by spending taxpayers’ money in creating such documents, which I do not believe for one minute that people are going to read other than to mock. I do not like that. We can get a pretty clear idea of what someone is speaking about when we listen to them speak in their local variant of Scots, but writing it changes its nature, making it—to my mind—a bit laboured and bogus. Let us ensure that we are doing the right things to underpin the take-up of Gaelic, and not turn people away from it by imposing it in places where it is not even a tenth language. We should not be plastering public buildings, signs and vehicles with Gaelic in areas where it was never traditionally spoken. That only creates irritation among the public about their taxes being pointlessly spent.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.62

Will the member take an intervention?

Emma Harper

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25511

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Will the member take an intervention?

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.63

I wish I could, but I cannot. If we are going to take the bill further—and I think that we will—stages 2 and 3 need to properly refine the bill. If we cannot properly define or measure desired outcomes or be realistic about how the bill will be funded, we should go back to the drawing board.

Stephen Kerr

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25696

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I wish I could, but I cannot. If we are going to take the bill further—and I think that we will—stages 2 and 3 need to properly refine the bill. If we cannot properly define or measure desired outcomes or be realistic about how the bill will be funded, we should go back to the drawing board.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.64

We have no time in hand, so members will have to stick to their speaking allocations from now on.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14046

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

We have no time in hand, so members will have to stick to their speaking allocations from now on.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.65

As the Parliament celebrates its 25th anniversary, we look back to the many achievements during the past quarter of a century. Almost 20 years ago, back in 2005, when I—and many others in here—were but youngsters, the Parliament passed the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005. Members can have a wee laugh to themselves, at least. There were many contributions that day, not only in English but in Gaelic, too. However, members will be glad to hear that I will not subject them to any rusty Gaelic today. Back in 2005, our then colleague Alex Neil welcomed the passing of the act, saying that we could be proud that “the Scottish Parliament has rectified decades, if not centuries, of neglect of a key part of Scotland’s past and heritage.”—[Official Report, 21 April 2005; c 16344.] Today, I feel the same. Today, I welcome the introduction of the Scottish Languages Bill, which seeks to emphasise that Gaelic and Scots are a significant part of Scotland’s culture and to ensure that they thrive and grow. The bill is more than a legislative step; it is a cultural commitment and a recognition that Scotland’s rich linguistic heritage deserves our full attention and support. Our nation’s identity is woven not only through the land and its history but through its words, languages and voices. Today, we take a step towards preserving and celebrating those voices. For centuries, Scotland has been a multilingual country. Gaelic, Scots and English are not only methods of communication but threads that bind us to our past, connect us to one other and give us a sense of belonging. They are the languages of our poetry, our stories, our communities and our traditions. With this bill, we look to the future. We look to protect and nurture our rich heritage for future generations. The bill, at its heart, seeks to ensure that our Scottish languages are not left to wither away or be relegated to the margins of society.

Bill Kidd (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14024

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

As the Parliament celebrates its 25th anniversary, we look back to the many achievements during the past quarter of a century. Almost 20 years ago, back in 2005, when I—and many others in here—were but youngsters, the Parliament passed the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005. Members can have a wee laugh to themselves, at least. There were many contributions that day, not only in English but in Gaelic, too. However, members will be glad to hear that I will not subject them to any rusty Gaelic today. Back in 2005, our then colleague Alex Neil welcomed the passing of the act, saying that we could be proud that “the Scottish Parliament has rectified decades, if not centuries, of neglect of a key part of Scotland’s past and heritage.”—[Official Report, 21 April 2005; c 16344.] Today, I feel the same. Today, I welcome the introduction of the Scottish Languages Bill, which seeks to emphasise that Gaelic and Scots are a significant part of Scotland’s culture and to ensure that they thrive and grow. The bill is more than a legislative step; it is a cultural commitment and a recognition that Scotland’s rich linguistic heritage deserves our full attention and support. Our nation’s identity is woven not only through the land and its history but through its words, languages and voices. Today, we take a step towards preserving and celebrating those voices. For centuries, Scotland has been a multilingual country. Gaelic, Scots and English are not only methods of communication but threads that bind us to our past, connect us to one other and give us a sense of belonging. They are the languages of our poetry, our stories, our communities and our traditions. With this bill, we look to the future. We look to protect and nurture our rich heritage for future generations. The bill, at its heart, seeks to ensure that our Scottish languages are not left to wither away or be relegated to the margins of society.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.66

If the bill seeks to achieve that, does the member think that it will?

Liam Kerr

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25515

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

If the bill seeks to achieve that, does the member think that it will?

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.67

The bill is at stage 1, and it is a start towards advancing our cause to bring Scots and Gaelic back into everyday use. Yes, I think that it will make that difference. It is the beginning, but it is an important beginning. The bill seeks to make certain that Gaelic and Scots get the recognition, support and promotion that they deserve, not only in our rural areas or specific communities but throughout Scotland. By doing so, we acknowledge that our languages are not historical relics but living and breathing parts of our modern culture. It is often said that to lose a language is to lose a part of ourselves. Each language offers a unique world view and a different way of understanding our relationship to the world and to one another. However, it is not enough to simply recognise those languages; we must actively promote and support them. The bill outlines key measures as to how we begin to do that through increased funding for language education, greater representation in public life and a commitment to ensuring that services—from healthcare to local government—are accessible in those languages. We must ensure that the Gaelic language is not only preserved in the classroom but spoken in the community, homes and workplaces and in the media. The establishment of a national Gaelic language plan as part of the bill is a vital step. It will ensure that future generations grow up not only hearing the language but feeling empowered to speak it as part of their everyday lives. We must continue to give Scots the respect that it deserves as a legitimate language and not a dialect or informal form of English. Scots has been the language of many of our greatest writers and thinkers, and it remains the language of many people in our communities today. The bill will provide support for Scots in education, and so help children to learn and take pride in their native tongue, as well as ensure that the language is represented in literature, media and public life. As we consider the bill, let us think of it not merely as an administrative step but as a commitment to the future of Scotland—one in which our languages are spoken freely, our communities are connected through shared understanding and our cultural diversity is celebrated rather than diminished. I urge all members to support the bill, to stand for a multilingual Scotland and to protect the voices that have shaped—and will continue to shape—our national identity. Together, we can ensure that Scotland remains a land where all languages are spoken with pride and heard with respect.

Bill Kidd

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14024

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

The bill is at stage 1, and it is a start towards advancing our cause to bring Scots and Gaelic back into everyday use. Yes, I think that it will make that difference. It is the beginning, but it is an important beginning. The bill seeks to make certain that Gaelic and Scots get the recognition, support and promotion that they deserve, not only in our rural areas or specific communities but throughout Scotland. By doing so, we acknowledge that our languages are not historical relics but living and breathing parts of our modern culture. It is often said that to lose a language is to lose a part of ourselves. Each language offers a unique world view and a different way of understanding our relationship to the world and to one another. However, it is not enough to simply recognise those languages; we must actively promote and support them. The bill outlines key measures as to how we begin to do that through increased funding for language education, greater representation in public life and a commitment to ensuring that services—from healthcare to local government—are accessible in those languages. We must ensure that the Gaelic language is not only preserved in the classroom but spoken in the community, homes and workplaces and in the media. The establishment of a national Gaelic language plan as part of the bill is a vital step. It will ensure that future generations grow up not only hearing the language but feeling empowered to speak it as part of their everyday lives. We must continue to give Scots the respect that it deserves as a legitimate language and not a dialect or informal form of English. Scots has been the language of many of our greatest writers and thinkers, and it remains the language of many people in our communities today. The bill will provide support for Scots in education, and so help children to learn and take pride in their native tongue, as well as ensure that the language is represented in literature, media and public life. As we consider the bill, let us think of it not merely as an administrative step but as a commitment to the future of Scotland—one in which our languages are spoken freely, our communities are connected through shared understanding and our cultural diversity is celebrated rather than diminished. I urge all members to support the bill, to stand for a multilingual Scotland and to protect the voices that have shaped—and will continue to shape—our national identity. Together, we can ensure that Scotland remains a land where all languages are spoken with pride and heard with respect.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.68

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate. I only joined the Education, Children and Young People Committee in June, so although I contributed to the wording of its final report on the bill, I was not involved in the hearing of evidence prior to that point. I confess to not having any Gaelic and not being fluent in Scots. In fact, languages are not my strong point at all. I did get somewhere with Nepali during my three years in Nepal, but that was only because so few people there spoke any English. That tends to show that we can all learn other languages if we need to. However, for those of us who speak English, there appears to be very little need to learn them—even ones that are native to this country. I wanted to speak in the debate mainly to declare my support and enthusiasm for Scots and Gaelic, and for any help that we can give them. Whether we speak them or not, those languages are part of our national heritage and the whole country would be poorer without them. On a positive note, there are some encouraging signs—including in the literal sense—compared with when I was younger. Just seeing more Gaelic around, such as on signs at railway stations, is helpful. For example, seeing “Sràid na Banrighinn” at Glasgow Queen Street station has helped to get those Gaelic words into my mind. The demand for Gaelic-medium education in Glasgow and beyond is also encouraging. I commend Glasgow City Council for responding to parents’ desires on that front, which includes the development of a new GME primary school in Calton in my Glasgow Shettleston constituency. A few months ago, it was encouraging for me to to hear Alasdair Allan ask a question in the chamber in Gaelic and Kate Forbes respond in the same language. We want to see more of that happening. When it comes to Scots, some of us might be comfortable using a few words, even if we could not manage a whole speech. I commend Emma Harper for suggesting words that members might use in the chamber. My father was quite keen on using Scots words. For example, I remember him coming home on a Friday evening and saying that he was “wabbit”. We currently have no local newspaper in the east end of Glasgow, so my surgery notices appear in a magazine called “Hoolit”. I am sure that everyone here knows what that means. Mind you, when it comes to accents, I sometimes struggle to understand Kevin Stewart and Jackie Dunbar when they get going, whatever language they might be using. Some people would say that Gaelic is a dying language, and that it brings no benefit to Scotland and should be forgotten about. However, let us remember how important our tourism sector is and the amount of money that it brings into our economy. In the summer, I went to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Among other things, I wanted to see which words people used in those countries, how those words differed from each other and which ones were similar across the three languages. If people had all been using the same language—for example, Russian—that experience would not have been nearly so interesting. Similarly, in Wales and Ireland, it is great to see the local language on display, even if virtually everyone speaks English. One of my few Welsh words is “araf”, which I know means “slow” because it is painted all over the roads—I do not think that that is just for my benefit. However, I do not even know the Gaelic for “slow”, because I have never seen it on our roads. Having one or more national languages can be a boost for tourism and encouraging more visitors to Scotland. The committee made a number of clear recommendations in its report, and the Scottish Government has responded to those. Perhaps not surprisingly, I will focus on the financial aspects. For example, paragraph 43 of the committee’s report noted that “stakeholders are looking for more tangible support”. I assume that such support would include more money, but the Government’s response does not really address that point. Similarly, in paragraphs 122 to 125 of its report, the committee notes that the bill does not provide funding for local authorities in relation to designating an area of linguistic significance. The Scottish Government’s response says that several authorities “are making their own funding decisions” and that the Government “will continue to do what it can to support authority initiatives.” I take the point—I think that the committee does, too—that some current funding can perhaps be redirected. However, there remains a concern that expanded duties are likely to require money from somewhere. In paragraphs 279 to 283, we ask about the standards, the requirements and the associated costs. The Government’s response contains an annex, with examples of standards for illustrative purposes. Unless I am missing it, there is no mention of the costs, however. The committee notes that a Scots language board is absent, in contrast to the board that Gaelic has, and that could put extra costs on to the Scots organisations that the Government is potentially relying on. The Government says that it “will reflect on measures that could be considered”. I am not entirely sure what that means, but it sounds a bit vague. Paragraphs 487 to 491 of the committee’s report deal with the financial memorandum. The Government’s position “that the Financial Memorandum is not a budget” is technically correct. However, if the FM is meaningful, it is a pretty strong commitment that the budget for the relevant year will be at least what is in the FM. I am not entirely comfortable with the phrase “wholly new costs”, which appears a number of times. The committee’s concern, and that of external organisations, is that the bill might lead to increased costs, even if they are not “wholly new”. Therefore, if a local authority is currently spending £500 on a particular issue, say, and the cost goes up to £1000, that £1,000 would not be “wholly new costs”, but the amount would be increased, and it would be partly old and partly new money.

John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25101

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate. I only joined the Education, Children and Young People Committee in June, so although I contributed to the wording of its final report on the bill, I was not involved in the hearing of evidence prior to that point. I confess to not having any Gaelic and not being fluent in Scots. In fact, languages are not my strong point at all. I did get somewhere with Nepali during my three years in Nepal, but that was only because so few people there spoke any English. That tends to show that we can all learn other languages if we need to. However, for those of us who speak English, there appears to be very little need to learn them—even ones that are native to this country. I wanted to speak in the debate mainly to declare my support and enthusiasm for Scots and Gaelic, and for any help that we can give them. Whether we speak them or not, those languages are part of our national heritage and the whole country would be poorer without them. On a positive note, there are some encouraging signs—including in the literal sense—compared with when I was younger. Just seeing more Gaelic around, such as on signs at railway stations, is helpful. For example, seeing “Sràid na Banrighinn” at Glasgow Queen Street station has helped to get those Gaelic words into my mind. The demand for Gaelic-medium education in Glasgow and beyond is also encouraging. I commend Glasgow City Council for responding to parents’ desires on that front, which includes the development of a new GME primary school in Calton in my Glasgow Shettleston constituency. A few months ago, it was encouraging for me to to hear Alasdair Allan ask a question in the chamber in Gaelic and Kate Forbes respond in the same language. We want to see more of that happening. When it comes to Scots, some of us might be comfortable using a few words, even if we could not manage a whole speech. I commend Emma Harper for suggesting words that members might use in the chamber. My father was quite keen on using Scots words. For example, I remember him coming home on a Friday evening and saying that he was “wabbit”. We currently have no local newspaper in the east end of Glasgow, so my surgery notices appear in a magazine called “Hoolit”. I am sure that everyone here knows what that means. Mind you, when it comes to accents, I sometimes struggle to understand Kevin Stewart and Jackie Dunbar when they get going, whatever language they might be using. Some people would say that Gaelic is a dying language, and that it brings no benefit to Scotland and should be forgotten about. However, let us remember how important our tourism sector is and the amount of money that it brings into our economy. In the summer, I went to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Among other things, I wanted to see which words people used in those countries, how those words differed from each other and which ones were similar across the three languages. If people had all been using the same language—for example, Russian—that experience would not have been nearly so interesting. Similarly, in Wales and Ireland, it is great to see the local language on display, even if virtually everyone speaks English. One of my few Welsh words is “araf”, which I know means “slow” because it is painted all over the roads—I do not think that that is just for my benefit. However, I do not even know the Gaelic for “slow”, because I have never seen it on our roads. Having one or more national languages can be a boost for tourism and encouraging more visitors to Scotland. The committee made a number of clear recommendations in its report, and the Scottish Government has responded to those. Perhaps not surprisingly, I will focus on the financial aspects. For example, paragraph 43 of the committee’s report noted that “stakeholders are looking for more tangible support”. I assume that such support would include more money, but the Government’s response does not really address that point. Similarly, in paragraphs 122 to 125 of its report, the committee notes that the bill does not provide funding for local authorities in relation to designating an area of linguistic significance. The Scottish Government’s response says that several authorities “are making their own funding decisions” and that the Government “will continue to do what it can to support authority initiatives.” I take the point—I think that the committee does, too—that some current funding can perhaps be redirected. However, there remains a concern that expanded duties are likely to require money from somewhere. In paragraphs 279 to 283, we ask about the standards, the requirements and the associated costs. The Government’s response contains an annex, with examples of standards for illustrative purposes. Unless I am missing it, there is no mention of the costs, however. The committee notes that a Scots language board is absent, in contrast to the board that Gaelic has, and that could put extra costs on to the Scots organisations that the Government is potentially relying on. The Government says that it “will reflect on measures that could be considered”. I am not entirely sure what that means, but it sounds a bit vague. Paragraphs 487 to 491 of the committee’s report deal with the financial memorandum. The Government’s position “that the Financial Memorandum is not a budget” is technically correct. However, if the FM is meaningful, it is a pretty strong commitment that the budget for the relevant year will be at least what is in the FM. I am not entirely comfortable with the phrase “wholly new costs”, which appears a number of times. The committee’s concern, and that of external organisations, is that the bill might lead to increased costs, even if they are not “wholly new”. Therefore, if a local authority is currently spending £500 on a particular issue, say, and the cost goes up to £1000, that £1,000 would not be “wholly new costs”, but the amount would be increased, and it would be partly old and partly new money.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.69

Just to give some background on the “wholly new costs”, the intention is that, right now, money is being spent on Gaelic provision, and the costs would not be “wholly new”; they would be in addition to the costing. I hope that that helps.

Sue Webber

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26017

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Just to give some background on the “wholly new costs”, the intention is that, right now, money is being spent on Gaelic provision, and the costs would not be “wholly new”; they would be in addition to the costing. I hope that that helps.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.70

I understand that point, but we could perhaps come up with some different wording. Both the Government and the committee were using that phrase. Anyway, I accept that I was new to the discussion, and I did not have all the history. The committee accepts that finances are very tight at present, but there is a concern that the bill will raise expectations that cannot be delivered on current budgets. Having said all that, I very much support the principles of the bill, and I hope that it will pass at stage 1. There should be plenty of opportunity for amendments at stage 2.

John Mason

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25101

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I understand that point, but we could perhaps come up with some different wording. Both the Government and the committee were using that phrase. Anyway, I accept that I was new to the discussion, and I did not have all the history. The committee accepts that finances are very tight at present, but there is a concern that the bill will raise expectations that cannot be delivered on current budgets. Having said all that, I very much support the principles of the bill, and I hope that it will pass at stage 1. There should be plenty of opportunity for amendments at stage 2.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.71

We move to closing speeches.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

We move to closing speeches.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.72

I said in my opening speech that I hoped that this afternoon’s debate would bring up some of the questions about the bill that needed resolved, and some of the potential solutions. I think that it has mostly done that, and I have enjoyed the debate—with just one exception. Members made some very positive contributions. There are a couple of points that I wish to address. I do not agree with Liam Kerr’s position on Scots, but I think that he was right to raise the submission from the Law Society of Scotland on definitions. I would say, however, that we do not define what English is in law, and the definition of Gaelic in law under the 2005 act is “the Gaelic language as used in Scotland”, so I do not see the reason why we would need to hold Scots to a completely different standard from our two other national languages. It grates a bit for me when some argue that the range of other social ills that we face means that we should not be prioritising the two languages. After centuries of decline, deliberate marginalisation and attempts at annihilation of both languages, when should we start prioritising them? When Gaelic is facing an existential threat, how much longer should we wait before we start prioritising it? This is absolutely the right time. The right time was 20 years ago or 200 years ago, but the second most appropriate time is most certainly now. I have much more sympathy with Michael Marra’s points about the financial memorandum. That connects to some of the evidence that we heard that legislation is not really what is needed, or it is certainly not the major missing piece of the puzzle. We heard that community development and youth work, for example, are absolutely essential, but we cannot ignore the financial picture. We know that significant amounts of additional investment are not going to be forthcoming any time soon, and there are areas of the challenge that we can resolve through legislation. The cabinet secretary reflected on the progress made over the past 40 years, and she was absolutely right to do so. There has been lots of achievement. Forty years on, however, Gaelic is under existential threat today, so it is hard to say that the past 40 years has been a success overall. It is to the credit of so many people who have worked so hard that the situation is not much worse than it is, but we need to recognise that the language faces an existential crisis. The community is looking for much more tangible support. I understand that it is not always legally possible to act on some proposals, particularly around education—as the cabinet secretary mentioned in response to Rhoda Grant—but also around areas such as housing. There is a tricky interaction with equality law here. I would like to detail a couple of further potential amendments to the bill that the Greens are considering lodging. The first concerns section 2(2)(c)—and I quite like what it adds. That paragraph adds new subsections to the 2005 act outlining that, in its functions, “the Bòrd must ... as is both appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practicable ... seek to give effect ... to the principle that the Gaelic and English languages” should be treated with “equal respect.” That is not repeated throughout the rest of the bill. I would like that to be mirrored in other relevant sections, particularly the section on the strategy, because the principle of equal respect is important and that section is particularly well drafted and could be replicated elsewhere. I also ask the Government to consider strengthening the section on remedies when there is a failure of a public body to implement the duties placed on it. If the Government accepts the Bòrd’s conclusions that a public body has failed in those duties, it can direct remedial action or lay a report before Parliament, but surely if the Scottish Government has already agreed that a public body has failed to meet the duties that are set out in law, it must direct that body to act, so I am not sure why that is optional. I welcome section 13(2), which moves responsibility for provision of Gaelic education guidance from the Bòrd to ministers. I hope that that will raise the status of that guidance, because we are all well aware that there are real challenges with compliance with the guidance that has been produced by the Bòrd. However, again, that section can be stronger. It gives the Scottish Government the option of providing that guidance, which, by my reading, means that it has the option of not providing it, so I would like to replace the word “may” with “shall”. I do not think that that is onerous for the Government. That would safeguard against any future Government losing focus on the matter. On a similar theme, the Law Society of Scotland points out that the bill includes no sanction for non-compliance or, indeed, provision for appeal for a public body that wants to challenge the Bòrd’s conclusions. I think that both those issues need to be addressed, and I agree with Emma Roddick on the need to strengthen and clarify that section. Both carrots and sticks can be used in such situations. Areas of linguistic significance feel like a good idea, but to what end? The committee has asked for greater clarity on that, and, again, the provision could be strengthened by amendment. There is a danger of it being a tick-box exercise or of it being an imposition rather than a community-led process. Ruth Maguire made that point very effectively on a number of occasions throughout stage 1 evidence gathering. The education sections of the bill have been pretty broadly welcomed. Emma Harper cited some excellent examples of what is already happening in the area, but further clarity is needed in the bill. The Bòrd and His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Education have asked for clarity on the relationship between this piece of work and the on-going education reform programme, particularly in relation to inspections and the question of enforcement. The Greens will support the bill, but we are worried that what is in front of us is, as I said earlier, the result of the logic that something must be done, so we have done something. We want to work with the Government to go further, and we welcome the cabinet secretary’s outreach on that. The word “transformational” was used a number of times in evidence gathering and was used again this afternoon in the cabinet secretary’s opening remarks. No one believes that the bill that is in front of us will result in the kind of transformation that most, if not all, of us want. The bill alone was never going to do that, but there are areas of this challenge that can be solved only through legislation, and we cannot wait another 20 years for another go. I look forward to working on a cross-party basis to get the bill right.

Ross Greer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25509

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I said in my opening speech that I hoped that this afternoon’s debate would bring up some of the questions about the bill that needed resolved, and some of the potential solutions. I think that it has mostly done that, and I have enjoyed the debate—with just one exception. Members made some very positive contributions. There are a couple of points that I wish to address. I do not agree with Liam Kerr’s position on Scots, but I think that he was right to raise the submission from the Law Society of Scotland on definitions. I would say, however, that we do not define what English is in law, and the definition of Gaelic in law under the 2005 act is “the Gaelic language as used in Scotland”, so I do not see the reason why we would need to hold Scots to a completely different standard from our two other national languages. It grates a bit for me when some argue that the range of other social ills that we face means that we should not be prioritising the two languages. After centuries of decline, deliberate marginalisation and attempts at annihilation of both languages, when should we start prioritising them? When Gaelic is facing an existential threat, how much longer should we wait before we start prioritising it? This is absolutely the right time. The right time was 20 years ago or 200 years ago, but the second most appropriate time is most certainly now. I have much more sympathy with Michael Marra’s points about the financial memorandum. That connects to some of the evidence that we heard that legislation is not really what is needed, or it is certainly not the major missing piece of the puzzle. We heard that community development and youth work, for example, are absolutely essential, but we cannot ignore the financial picture. We know that significant amounts of additional investment are not going to be forthcoming any time soon, and there are areas of the challenge that we can resolve through legislation. The cabinet secretary reflected on the progress made over the past 40 years, and she was absolutely right to do so. There has been lots of achievement. Forty years on, however, Gaelic is under existential threat today, so it is hard to say that the past 40 years has been a success overall. It is to the credit of so many people who have worked so hard that the situation is not much worse than it is, but we need to recognise that the language faces an existential crisis. The community is looking for much more tangible support. I understand that it is not always legally possible to act on some proposals, particularly around education—as the cabinet secretary mentioned in response to Rhoda Grant—but also around areas such as housing. There is a tricky interaction with equality law here. I would like to detail a couple of further potential amendments to the bill that the Greens are considering lodging. The first concerns section 2(2)(c)—and I quite like what it adds. That paragraph adds new subsections to the 2005 act outlining that, in its functions, “the Bòrd must ... as is both appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practicable ... seek to give effect ... to the principle that the Gaelic and English languages” should be treated with “equal respect.” That is not repeated throughout the rest of the bill. I would like that to be mirrored in other relevant sections, particularly the section on the strategy, because the principle of equal respect is important and that section is particularly well drafted and could be replicated elsewhere. I also ask the Government to consider strengthening the section on remedies when there is a failure of a public body to implement the duties placed on it. If the Government accepts the Bòrd’s conclusions that a public body has failed in those duties, it can direct remedial action or lay a report before Parliament, but surely if the Scottish Government has already agreed that a public body has failed to meet the duties that are set out in law, it must direct that body to act, so I am not sure why that is optional. I welcome section 13(2), which moves responsibility for provision of Gaelic education guidance from the Bòrd to ministers. I hope that that will raise the status of that guidance, because we are all well aware that there are real challenges with compliance with the guidance that has been produced by the Bòrd. However, again, that section can be stronger. It gives the Scottish Government the option of providing that guidance, which, by my reading, means that it has the option of not providing it, so I would like to replace the word “may” with “shall”. I do not think that that is onerous for the Government. That would safeguard against any future Government losing focus on the matter. On a similar theme, the Law Society of Scotland points out that the bill includes no sanction for non-compliance or, indeed, provision for appeal for a public body that wants to challenge the Bòrd’s conclusions. I think that both those issues need to be addressed, and I agree with Emma Roddick on the need to strengthen and clarify that section. Both carrots and sticks can be used in such situations. Areas of linguistic significance feel like a good idea, but to what end? The committee has asked for greater clarity on that, and, again, the provision could be strengthened by amendment. There is a danger of it being a tick-box exercise or of it being an imposition rather than a community-led process. Ruth Maguire made that point very effectively on a number of occasions throughout stage 1 evidence gathering. The education sections of the bill have been pretty broadly welcomed. Emma Harper cited some excellent examples of what is already happening in the area, but further clarity is needed in the bill. The Bòrd and His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Education have asked for clarity on the relationship between this piece of work and the on-going education reform programme, particularly in relation to inspections and the question of enforcement. The Greens will support the bill, but we are worried that what is in front of us is, as I said earlier, the result of the logic that something must be done, so we have done something. We want to work with the Government to go further, and we welcome the cabinet secretary’s outreach on that. The word “transformational” was used a number of times in evidence gathering and was used again this afternoon in the cabinet secretary’s opening remarks. No one believes that the bill that is in front of us will result in the kind of transformation that most, if not all, of us want. The bill alone was never going to do that, but there are areas of this challenge that can be solved only through legislation, and we cannot wait another 20 years for another go. I look forward to working on a cross-party basis to get the bill right.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.73

I call Pam Duncan-Glancy to close on behalf of Scottish Labour. Ms Duncan-Glancy joins us remotely. You have up to six minutes.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I call Pam Duncan-Glancy to close on behalf of Scottish Labour. Ms Duncan-Glancy joins us remotely. You have up to six minutes.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.74

The needs of the Gaelic language and Gaelic communities have, of course, developed since Scottish Labour’s—

Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25994

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

The needs of the Gaelic language and Gaelic communities have, of course, developed since Scottish Labour’s—

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.75

Ms Duncan-Glancy, could you please pause for a second? We are having problems with the sound. Thank you.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Ms Duncan-Glancy, could you please pause for a second? We are having problems with the sound. Thank you.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.76

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The sound is coming through members’ headphones.

Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25073

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The sound is coming through members’ headphones.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.77

It seems that the sound is coming through the headphones, so I ask all members—[Interruption.] I am advised that the broadcast unit would rather fix the problem. I am sorry about this, Ms Duncan-Glancy—please be patient with us and we will get there.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

It seems that the sound is coming through the headphones, so I ask all members—[Interruption.] I am advised that the broadcast unit would rather fix the problem. I am sorry about this, Ms Duncan-Glancy—please be patient with us and we will get there.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.78

No problem, Presiding Officer.

Pam Duncan-Glancy

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25994

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

No problem, Presiding Officer.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.79

Ms Duncan-Glancy, could you please give us a test run? If you say a few words, we can see whether the sound is now working.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Ms Duncan-Glancy, could you please give us a test run? If you say a few words, we can see whether the sound is now working.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.80

I will. Does it work now? Is that better?

Pam Duncan-Glancy

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25994

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I will. Does it work now? Is that better?

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.81

Perfect. Thank you. I invite you to start your remarks from the top.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Perfect. Thank you. I invite you to start your remarks from the top.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.82

Thank you, Presiding Officer. The needs of the Gaelic language and of Gaelic communities have, of course, developed since Scottish Labour’s Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, which we are particularly proud of, was passed, and we need legislation that reflects that change. Therefore, although Scottish Labour members will vote for the bill that is before us today, it is our belief—and many others have agreed—that it does not do enough to protect the future of the Gaelic language or of Gaelic communities. The legislation’s focus on education means that it is restricted in scope. Even within that focus, there are—as many members have highlighted—flaws in the bill, not least in the assumption that all of its provisions can be delivered within existing resource. That matter was raised by the committee, and Sue Webber, John Mason and other members highlighted it in their contributions today. Indeed, as my colleague Rhoda Grant set out, the bill somewhat misses the point. My colleague Michael Marra mentioned the research by academics at the University of the Highlands and Islands that was published in 2020. The authors concluded that, without changes to policy and intervention at community level, Gaelic will not survive beyond the next decade. Yesterday, one of the authors of that research said that “The draft Bill effectively denies the crisis” and that it “fails to acknowledge the evidence base indicating that these communities are at the point of societal collapse.” He went on to say that the bill offers simply “‘more of the same’ ... rather than the much-needed new departure to help sustain Gaelic as a community language”. While Scottish Labour believes that there is, and must be, a place for Gaelic-medium education and that it must be supported, we also agree with the concerns that have been raised that the survival of Gaelic as a living language cannot be pinned on a narrowly drawn piece of legislation. In being such, the bill offers few, if any, concrete steps to support Gaelic communities, and it is quite vague, including—as witnesses told the committee—in definitions, which lack sufficient clarity, and in the absence of effective community voice within its provisions. I hope, therefore, that the Government will consider addressing those issues at stage 2, and I note the Deputy First Minister’s commitment, given to the committee’s convener today, to engage on the bill as it progresses. As I and other members in the chamber have said, the bill requires surgery to get it to a place where it can be truly effective. I agree with Liam Kerr on that. The bill also lacks sufficient enforcement capacity—as we just heard from Ross Greer—and there is an absence of sanction or appeal provisions. All of that, coupled with the Government’s own assertion that the bill does not need more resource, as it is simply “repurposing” activity, gives credence to some of the concerns of those who think that the bill lacks substance. Although the bill endeavours to deliver change in education, the provisions in that regard need more thought. Gaelic-medium education is already struggling. In Glasgow, the region that I represent, although we are proud to have four primary schools and the only secondary school in the world teaching through the medium of Gaelic, we need a new primary school and there are limited funds to either build one from scratch or refurbish an existing property. There is also no additional resource for the cost of translating or providing learning resources, including those that are required by the SQA, such as textbooks in Gaelic. The responsibility for that falls on Gaelic-medium schools, which puts additional time and cost demands on already overburdened and overworked teachers. On that point, a member of the parent council in Glasgow contacted me and put the issue perfectly. They said: “There are particular responsibilities put on leadership teams in Gaelic-medium schools which are necessary to allow our children to fully access the curriculum, for example ensuring a language-rich immersion during the early years, which has to reach far beyond the classroom and the need for staff to create resources from scratch, particularly to meet the needs of all children.” They go on to say that they have made the case that “This should be reflected in the staffing formula”, but they have been advised that “any changes will need to take place at a Scotland-wide level with that then reflected in the funding allocated locally.” The Scottish Government’s financial memorandum says: “The main impact of the Bill provisions is a shift in activity” and “a repurposing of resources”. I hope, therefore, that the Government will take seriously the concerns that have been raised by those parents, and I would welcome the Deputy First Minister’s response to them, and to these issues, in closing. On a related point, the Government must also take seriously the committee’s recommendation that it undertake “a workforce planning exercise” in that respect. I remind the cabinet secretary that this Parliament voted for the Government to publish such a comprehensive workforce plan for education. Finally, the Scottish Government must also realise that Gaelic-medium education does not exist in isolation, as many members on all sides of the chamber have highlighted today. For Gaelic-medium education to be effective, parents and carers must also be supported to learn and use Gaelic, as Emma Roddick set out. At present, many parents and families lack fluency and are therefore unable to help their children with homework in Gaelic, so—again—it falls to the school to find that additionality. The reality is that the bill fails to recognise the current reality and the intrinsic connection between Gaelic-medium education and the need to keep the use of the language alive in the wider community, and it fails to take account of the resource that is needed for it to be successful. Supporting Gaelic communities and saving the Gaelic language, including through Gaelic-medium education, will need broad-ranging change that the bill does not yet deliver. I hope that the Scottish Government takes seriously my concerns—as well as those of colleagues, the committee, the community and experts—and makes the necessary changes to the bill, so that it can make the difference that is needed and retain Parliament’s support. The Gaelic community cannot afford our missing this opportunity. Today, Scottish Labour will support the bill, but much of it will need to be amended if it is truly to deliver change of the scale that is needed to protect our Gaelic communities.

Pam Duncan-Glancy

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25994

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Thank you, Presiding Officer. The needs of the Gaelic language and of Gaelic communities have, of course, developed since Scottish Labour’s Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, which we are particularly proud of, was passed, and we need legislation that reflects that change. Therefore, although Scottish Labour members will vote for the bill that is before us today, it is our belief—and many others have agreed—that it does not do enough to protect the future of the Gaelic language or of Gaelic communities. The legislation’s focus on education means that it is restricted in scope. Even within that focus, there are—as many members have highlighted—flaws in the bill, not least in the assumption that all of its provisions can be delivered within existing resource. That matter was raised by the committee, and Sue Webber, John Mason and other members highlighted it in their contributions today. Indeed, as my colleague Rhoda Grant set out, the bill somewhat misses the point. My colleague Michael Marra mentioned the research by academics at the University of the Highlands and Islands that was published in 2020. The authors concluded that, without changes to policy and intervention at community level, Gaelic will not survive beyond the next decade. Yesterday, one of the authors of that research said that “The draft Bill effectively denies the crisis” and that it “fails to acknowledge the evidence base indicating that these communities are at the point of societal collapse.” He went on to say that the bill offers simply “‘more of the same’ ... rather than the much-needed new departure to help sustain Gaelic as a community language”. While Scottish Labour believes that there is, and must be, a place for Gaelic-medium education and that it must be supported, we also agree with the concerns that have been raised that the survival of Gaelic as a living language cannot be pinned on a narrowly drawn piece of legislation. In being such, the bill offers few, if any, concrete steps to support Gaelic communities, and it is quite vague, including—as witnesses told the committee—in definitions, which lack sufficient clarity, and in the absence of effective community voice within its provisions. I hope, therefore, that the Government will consider addressing those issues at stage 2, and I note the Deputy First Minister’s commitment, given to the committee’s convener today, to engage on the bill as it progresses. As I and other members in the chamber have said, the bill requires surgery to get it to a place where it can be truly effective. I agree with Liam Kerr on that. The bill also lacks sufficient enforcement capacity—as we just heard from Ross Greer—and there is an absence of sanction or appeal provisions. All of that, coupled with the Government’s own assertion that the bill does not need more resource, as it is simply “repurposing” activity, gives credence to some of the concerns of those who think that the bill lacks substance. Although the bill endeavours to deliver change in education, the provisions in that regard need more thought. Gaelic-medium education is already struggling. In Glasgow, the region that I represent, although we are proud to have four primary schools and the only secondary school in the world teaching through the medium of Gaelic, we need a new primary school and there are limited funds to either build one from scratch or refurbish an existing property. There is also no additional resource for the cost of translating or providing learning resources, including those that are required by the SQA, such as textbooks in Gaelic. The responsibility for that falls on Gaelic-medium schools, which puts additional time and cost demands on already overburdened and overworked teachers. On that point, a member of the parent council in Glasgow contacted me and put the issue perfectly. They said: “There are particular responsibilities put on leadership teams in Gaelic-medium schools which are necessary to allow our children to fully access the curriculum, for example ensuring a language-rich immersion during the early years, which has to reach far beyond the classroom and the need for staff to create resources from scratch, particularly to meet the needs of all children.” They go on to say that they have made the case that “This should be reflected in the staffing formula”, but they have been advised that “any changes will need to take place at a Scotland-wide level with that then reflected in the funding allocated locally.” The Scottish Government’s financial memorandum says: “The main impact of the Bill provisions is a shift in activity” and “a repurposing of resources”. I hope, therefore, that the Government will take seriously the concerns that have been raised by those parents, and I would welcome the Deputy First Minister’s response to them, and to these issues, in closing. On a related point, the Government must also take seriously the committee’s recommendation that it undertake “a workforce planning exercise” in that respect. I remind the cabinet secretary that this Parliament voted for the Government to publish such a comprehensive workforce plan for education. Finally, the Scottish Government must also realise that Gaelic-medium education does not exist in isolation, as many members on all sides of the chamber have highlighted today. For Gaelic-medium education to be effective, parents and carers must also be supported to learn and use Gaelic, as Emma Roddick set out. At present, many parents and families lack fluency and are therefore unable to help their children with homework in Gaelic, so—again—it falls to the school to find that additionality. The reality is that the bill fails to recognise the current reality and the intrinsic connection between Gaelic-medium education and the need to keep the use of the language alive in the wider community, and it fails to take account of the resource that is needed for it to be successful. Supporting Gaelic communities and saving the Gaelic language, including through Gaelic-medium education, will need broad-ranging change that the bill does not yet deliver. I hope that the Scottish Government takes seriously my concerns—as well as those of colleagues, the committee, the community and experts—and makes the necessary changes to the bill, so that it can make the difference that is needed and retain Parliament’s support. The Gaelic community cannot afford our missing this opportunity. Today, Scottish Labour will support the bill, but much of it will need to be amended if it is truly to deliver change of the scale that is needed to protect our Gaelic communities.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.83

Thank you, Ms Duncan-Glancy, and thank you for your patience at the start of your speech. I call Roz McCall to close on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. You have up to seven minutes.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Thank you, Ms Duncan-Glancy, and thank you for your patience at the start of your speech. I call Roz McCall to close on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. You have up to seven minutes.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.84

I have the privilege of closing this afternoon’s stage 1 debate on the Scottish Languages Bill on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. As ever, we welcome the opportunity to engage in debate about all of Scotland’s languages, and I welcome the constructive approach that members from all parties have taken. I reiterate that we are supportive of the bill at this stage and we agree, in principle, that there should be additional focus on and support for our traditional languages. As I have said previously, my Gaelic and Scots are very limited, as are my Doric, Orcadian and Lallans. Having said that, I am a Conservative, and our whole ethos is based on tradition. Our customs and heritage play an important part in who we are, and our past informs our future. Not all that went before is bad. I believe in conserving things, particularly the culture that we all share. I will note a couple of the interesting contributions to the debate. First, I thank the interpreter, who helped me massively to follow the opening remarks by the Deputy First Minister. Similar to John Mason, I am particularly linguistically challenged. The Deputy First Minister talked of reversing the tide when it comes to the uptake and continued use of our Scottish languages, but it is important to recognise that we are pushing against a tsunami of social media that is all in English. I also note the Deputy First Minister’s agreement that the bill, in itself, is not a solution and that further work, for which cross-party support will be needed, will come at stage 2. We Conservatives are happy to take up that offer. My colleague Sue Webber highlighted that, due to current funding restrictions, only 39 per cent of Gaelic projects that have been applied for have received funding. Liam Kerr and Stephen Kerr expressed concerns about the bill’s financial memorandum, which is an important point. Ross Greer mentioned the need for the symbolic recognition of Scots, and I agree with him about that. However, it is important to note that Gaelic and Scots are at different stages in the legislative process, and that must be recognised. Liam Kerr’s question about what the Government wants to achieve for both languages is an important one. Perhaps the Deputy First Minister will comment on that in her closing remarks. As I have mentioned, I support our traditional languages. Scots Gaelic descended from Irish Gaelic in about 500 AD. Scots descended from northern English, with the earliest written records dating back to the 14th century, and we have different dialects within that. Orcadian is a dialect of Scots that is influenced by Old Norse. The term Lallans was traditionally used to refer to Scots as a whole, but, more recently, interpretations suggest that it refers to the dialects of central and south Scotland. Doric is a term that was also once used to refer to the Scots dialect in general, but it is now used only to refer to the mid-northern Scots dialect. We can certainly see the adaptations and morphings of our language over the centuries, and the challenges that each language has faced, forcing change to the way that we speak and where. It is those changes that, in part, brought the Scottish Government to recognise Scots as an indigenous language of Scotland and led to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization recognising it as a vulnerable language. Gaelic, in particular, faces many challenges, and it was vital to address those threats adequately at the outset of the bill. A number of members have mentioned those threats today, and they will not be unfamiliar to any who have read the official report on proceedings relating to Gaelic over the past 25 years. The University of the Highlands and Islands published its report “The Gaelic Crisis in the Vernacular Community” six years ago. Its findings were sobering and included that the social use and transmission of Gaelic was at the point of collapse. According to the researchers, only 11,000 habitual speakers of Gaelic were left. There have been several initiatives to enhance Gaelic across Scotland, which should be applauded, but the truth is that they have failed to cement any sort of basis for Gaelic speaking among young people across the Highlands and Islands and beyond. The bill must not repeat the mistakes of the past—it must not become just another piece of legislation. It must have the required cut-through with both the Gaelic and Scots-speaking communities if it is going to make a difference. I turn to the committee’s stage 1 report, which supported the general principles of the bill, which are “to provide further support for Scotland's indigenous languages, Gaelic and Scots.” Credit goes to the committee for its work. I will point to a couple of its conclusions. The committee did “not consider that, on its own, the Bill will create the necessary conditions to address the challenges facing the Gaelic language or provide the necessary support and protection to both Gaelic and the languages and dialects that come under the term Scots.”

Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26091

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I have the privilege of closing this afternoon’s stage 1 debate on the Scottish Languages Bill on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. As ever, we welcome the opportunity to engage in debate about all of Scotland’s languages, and I welcome the constructive approach that members from all parties have taken. I reiterate that we are supportive of the bill at this stage and we agree, in principle, that there should be additional focus on and support for our traditional languages. As I have said previously, my Gaelic and Scots are very limited, as are my Doric, Orcadian and Lallans. Having said that, I am a Conservative, and our whole ethos is based on tradition. Our customs and heritage play an important part in who we are, and our past informs our future. Not all that went before is bad. I believe in conserving things, particularly the culture that we all share. I will note a couple of the interesting contributions to the debate. First, I thank the interpreter, who helped me massively to follow the opening remarks by the Deputy First Minister. Similar to John Mason, I am particularly linguistically challenged. The Deputy First Minister talked of reversing the tide when it comes to the uptake and continued use of our Scottish languages, but it is important to recognise that we are pushing against a tsunami of social media that is all in English. I also note the Deputy First Minister’s agreement that the bill, in itself, is not a solution and that further work, for which cross-party support will be needed, will come at stage 2. We Conservatives are happy to take up that offer. My colleague Sue Webber highlighted that, due to current funding restrictions, only 39 per cent of Gaelic projects that have been applied for have received funding. Liam Kerr and Stephen Kerr expressed concerns about the bill’s financial memorandum, which is an important point. Ross Greer mentioned the need for the symbolic recognition of Scots, and I agree with him about that. However, it is important to note that Gaelic and Scots are at different stages in the legislative process, and that must be recognised. Liam Kerr’s question about what the Government wants to achieve for both languages is an important one. Perhaps the Deputy First Minister will comment on that in her closing remarks. As I have mentioned, I support our traditional languages. Scots Gaelic descended from Irish Gaelic in about 500 AD. Scots descended from northern English, with the earliest written records dating back to the 14th century, and we have different dialects within that. Orcadian is a dialect of Scots that is influenced by Old Norse. The term Lallans was traditionally used to refer to Scots as a whole, but, more recently, interpretations suggest that it refers to the dialects of central and south Scotland. Doric is a term that was also once used to refer to the Scots dialect in general, but it is now used only to refer to the mid-northern Scots dialect. We can certainly see the adaptations and morphings of our language over the centuries, and the challenges that each language has faced, forcing change to the way that we speak and where. It is those changes that, in part, brought the Scottish Government to recognise Scots as an indigenous language of Scotland and led to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization recognising it as a vulnerable language. Gaelic, in particular, faces many challenges, and it was vital to address those threats adequately at the outset of the bill. A number of members have mentioned those threats today, and they will not be unfamiliar to any who have read the official report on proceedings relating to Gaelic over the past 25 years. The University of the Highlands and Islands published its report “The Gaelic Crisis in the Vernacular Community” six years ago. Its findings were sobering and included that the social use and transmission of Gaelic was at the point of collapse. According to the researchers, only 11,000 habitual speakers of Gaelic were left. There have been several initiatives to enhance Gaelic across Scotland, which should be applauded, but the truth is that they have failed to cement any sort of basis for Gaelic speaking among young people across the Highlands and Islands and beyond. The bill must not repeat the mistakes of the past—it must not become just another piece of legislation. It must have the required cut-through with both the Gaelic and Scots-speaking communities if it is going to make a difference. I turn to the committee’s stage 1 report, which supported the general principles of the bill, which are “to provide further support for Scotland's indigenous languages, Gaelic and Scots.” Credit goes to the committee for its work. I will point to a couple of its conclusions. The committee did “not consider that, on its own, the Bill will create the necessary conditions to address the challenges facing the Gaelic language or provide the necessary support and protection to both Gaelic and the languages and dialects that come under the term Scots.”

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.85

You said that Scots comes from northern English. My understanding is that Scots is a west Germanic language, so it comes from the same family as English, Dutch, Flemish, Frisian and German. I just want to make sure that I heard you correctly.

Emma Harper

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25511

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

You said that Scots comes from northern English. My understanding is that Scots is a west Germanic language, so it comes from the same family as English, Dutch, Flemish, Frisian and German. I just want to make sure that I heard you correctly.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.86

Members should always speak through the chair.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Members should always speak through the chair.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.87

I researched that. In her intervention, Emma Harper has highlighted very well the problem with trying to define Scots, which is a very difficult process. The committee “believes that more needs to be done by the Scottish Government beyond what is set out in the Bill”. It was also “concerned by the lack of clarity within the Bill, particularly in relation to what obligations the strategies, standards and guidance ... will place on public bodies, and the associated costs of meeting such obligations.” That is not least because the financial memorandum needs to be sufficient to fulfil the objectives, about which there is consensus across the floor. I also note the Law Society of Scotland’s concerns, which were mentioned by my colleague Liam Kerr. In its briefing for the debate, it queried whether the definition of “the Scots language” as the “the Scots language as used in Scotland” is clear enough to take into account the regional variations within Scotland. There are legal issues involved, so we must look at that. The committee expected the Scottish Government to come back with some clarity prior to stage 2. We, on the Conservative benches, concur—much has to be done. The bill must be more than a further promise of hope and change. We must look at the investment of further public funds in a quantitative and qualitative way and actively make a change to the use and promotion of our indigenous languages.

Roz McCall

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26091

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I researched that. In her intervention, Emma Harper has highlighted very well the problem with trying to define Scots, which is a very difficult process. The committee “believes that more needs to be done by the Scottish Government beyond what is set out in the Bill”. It was also “concerned by the lack of clarity within the Bill, particularly in relation to what obligations the strategies, standards and guidance ... will place on public bodies, and the associated costs of meeting such obligations.” That is not least because the financial memorandum needs to be sufficient to fulfil the objectives, about which there is consensus across the floor. I also note the Law Society of Scotland’s concerns, which were mentioned by my colleague Liam Kerr. In its briefing for the debate, it queried whether the definition of “the Scots language” as the “the Scots language as used in Scotland” is clear enough to take into account the regional variations within Scotland. There are legal issues involved, so we must look at that. The committee expected the Scottish Government to come back with some clarity prior to stage 2. We, on the Conservative benches, concur—much has to be done. The bill must be more than a further promise of hope and change. We must look at the investment of further public funds in a quantitative and qualitative way and actively make a change to the use and promotion of our indigenous languages.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.88

I call the Deputy First Minister, Kate Forbes, to close on behalf of the Scottish Government.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

I call the Deputy First Minister, Kate Forbes, to close on behalf of the Scottish Government.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.89

Cha do thill Gàidhlig riamh gu coimhearsnachd far an deach a call. A’ Chomraich, Strath Narann, àiteachan ann an Loch Abar, Earra-Ghàidheal agus na h-Eileanan. Chan urrainn dhuinn a chòrr choimhearsnachdan a chall. Sin an aon amas a th’ agamsa leis a’ bhile seo agus ma tha sin ag iarraidh adhartas a dhèanamh, feumaidh sinn beachdachadh air grunn cheumannan. Chan e, agus cha b’ e riamh dìreach aon cheist no aon fhuasgladh a th’ ann nuair a thig e gu Gàidhlig is Albais. Tha sin soilleir bhon deasbad seo. Agus chuidich an fharsaingeachd de dh’fhianais an fhuaras sa cho-chomhairleachadh agus na diofar chùisean air an deach coimhead ann an aithisg ìre 1. Tha iad sin uile cudromach airson an adhartais a dh’fheumas sin a dhèanamh. Thòisich Sue Webber a’ bruidhinn mu bhuidseat. Chuala mi na thuirt a’ chomataidh agus na daoine a chur seachad ùine gus fianais a thoirt dhan Riaghaltas. Ged a tha cuideam mòr air a’ bhuidseat againn an-dràsta, tha mi a’ tuigsinn dè cho cudromach ‘s a tha maoineachadh airson Gàidhlig agus Albais. Ach aig an aon àm nam bheachdsa, tha na prìomhachasan aig luchd-labhairt na Gàidhlig agus na prìomhachasan aig luchd-labhairt na Beurla uaireannan an aon rud. Taigheadas, bun-structair, còmhdhail agus bu chòir beagan den airgead a tha sinn a’ cosg air bun-structair mar sin an-dràsta a dhol nas fhaide ann an coimhearsnachdan Gàidhlig ma tha sinn airson barrachd oidhirp fhaicinn anns na coimhearsnachdan Gàidhlig traidiseanta. Chan e dìreach maoineachadh ùr a tha a dhìth oirnn—agus chuala sinn sin bho John Mason—ach a bhith a’ dèanamh cinnteach gu bheil maoineachadh a th’ anns a’ bhuidseat an-dràsta a’ dèanamh barrachd gus Gàidhlig a neartachadh anns na coimhearsnachdan traidiseanta. Bha mi cuideachd ag aontachadh ri Liam Kerr agus daoine eile gu bheil feum againn air beachdachadh air dè cho èifeachdach ’s a tha na h-iomairtean againn, na planaichean againn, na laghan againn, am bile seo. Tha an cunntas-sluaigh a’ toirt freagairtan dhuinn—tha barrachd dhaoine a’ cleachdadh a’ chànain agus tha na h-àireamhan de luchd-labhairt a’ dol suas. Ach chunnaic sinn cuideachd gu bheil de luchd-labhairt anns na sgìrean traidiseanta a’ dol sìos agus chan eil an cunntas-sluaigh a’ sealltainn dè cho fileanta ’s a tha luchd-labhairt no cho tric ‘s a tha iad a’ bruidhinn a’ chànain. Tha mi a’ beachdachadh air na trioblaidean agus na dùbhlain a thaobh na ceist mu èifeachachd. Tha mi cuideachd taingeil airson na taic a chuala mi bho Mhìcheal Marra is daoine eile. Thuirt esan gun robh an cànan ann an èiginn agus gum feumadh am bile a bhith èifeachdach. Bheachdaich e cuideachd air an aithisg a dh’fhoillsich an Riaghaltas air na cothroman eaconomagach is sòisealta airson na Gàidhlig agus sin as adhbhar gu bheil mi uamhasach taiceil ri oifigearan leasachaidh Gàidhlig. As t-Samhradh, bha mi ann an Cille Mhoire anns an Eilean Sgitheanach far a bheil Eilidh Rankin, aon de na h-oifigearan leasachaidh Gàidhlig an sin. Is nuair a chaidh mi sìos dhan talla anns a’ bhaile, chuala mi tòrr Gàidhlig air a bruidhinn. Bha a’ choimhearsnachd uile a’ suidhe ri chèile le brot is cèic le daoine òg is daoine nas sìne is bha Gàidhlig ri cluinntinn. Chuir Eilidh an lunch sin air dòigh gus Gàidhlig a chumail beò – àite far a bheil daoine aig a bheil Gàidhlig a’ tighinn ri chèile agus a’ bruidhinn Gàidhlig. Gu h-inntinneach, bha sgoilearan bho bhaile Pheairt ann cuideachd agus bha iadsan anns an Eilean Sgitheanach airson seachdain airson a bhith ag ionnsachadh na Gàidhlig agus a bhith a’ dèanamh diofar rudan leis an tidsear Gàidhlig aca. Chan eil mòran sgoilearan Gàidhlig ann an Acadamaidh Pheairt, agus bha iongnadh orra Gàidhlig a chluinntinn anns a’ choimhearsnachd san fharsaingeachd. Agus tha sinn a’ sealltainn dè cho cudromach ’s a tha e gu bheil oifigearan leasachaidh againn agus tha e cuideachd a’ sealltainn mura h-eil coimhearsanchdan traidiseanta ann, cha bhi Gàidhlig beò. Mar a thuirt mi aig an toiseach, cha do thill Gàidhlig riamh gu coimhearsnachd far an deach a call. Ma tha sinn airson Gàidhlig a chumail beò, tha sin a’ ciallachadh gu bheil na coimhearsnachdan mar Chille Mhoire feumach air barrachd taic. Thuirt Ross Greer gun robh inbhe a’ chànain cudromach agus tha sin fìor gun teagamh sam bith ’S urrainn dhuinn obair a dhèanamh air a’ bhile mar a tha sinn a’ feuchainn ri dhèanamh agus aig an aon àm a bhith ag obair tro iomairtean eile, a’ lorg barrachd maoineachaidh ma tha sin a dhìth oirnn agus a’ stèidheachadh stiùireadh soilleir airson buidhnean poblach. Chan e taghadh a th’ ann—tha a h-uile càil cudromach—’s e an aon phrìomhachas againn uile a bhith a’ faicinnn adhartas air na h-àireamhan, air na coimhearsnachdan agus cuideachd air an ìre de dh’fhileantas. Le cumhachan a’ bhile seo ’s urrainnear buannachdan brìoghmhor a ghleidheadh airson sgoiltean is ionnsachadh, an eaconamaidh is bun-structair, na meadhanan, iomairtean coimhearsnachd agus ionnsachadh do dh’inbhich. Mus crìochnaich mi, bu mhath leam mo thaing a thoirt dhan chomataidh airson nam beachdan mionaideach is taiceil aca. Cuideachd, fhuair sinn tòrr taice bho na daoine a ghabh pàirt ann an co-chomhairleachadh Riaghaltas na h-Alba agus a thug fianais seachad dhan chomataidh. Following is the simultaneous interpretation: Gaelic has never returned to a community from which it has been lost, such as parts of Argyll, Lochaber and the islands. We cannot lose the language in more communities. That is my aim with the bill. If we want there to be progress, we have to make changes in different places. For Gaelic and Scots, it has never been a case of there being one issue and one solution. That is clear in the debate, and when we consider the broad range of evidence that was submitted to the committee during its consultation, as well as the range of issues that were highlighted in its stage 1 report. All those are important for the progress that we need to make. Sue Webber spoke about budget. I have heard what the committee said in the evidence that it gave to the Government. Much has been said about funding, because it is important for Scots and Gaelic. The priorities for Gaelic speakers and Scots speakers are based on similar things, such as housing, infrastructure, energy and transport. If we spent on Gaelic anything similar to what we spend on infrastructure in those communities, we would see more progress. As we heard from John Mason, we do not just need new funding and investment; we need to spend the money in the budget more effectively to strengthen Gaelic in traditional communities. I agree with Liam Kerr and others that we need to think about how effective our strategies, plans and laws, including the bill, are. The census gives us an answer. More people are using Gaelic. The number of Gaelic speakers has gone up, but the number of Gaelic speakers in traditional communities has gone down. The census does not show how fluent a Gaelic speaker is or how often they speak the language, so it is important to consider how effective things are. I am thankful for the support that I got from Michael Marra and others. He said that the language is in a state of emergency and that the bill could be useful, and he discussed the economic opportunities in relation to Gaelic. That is why I am very thankful for Gaelic development officers. This summer, I was in Kilmuir, in the north of Skye, where Eilidh Rankin is one of the Gaelic development officers. When I visited the local hall there, I heard a lot of Gaelic being spoken. Members of the community—young people and older people—were sitting together having soup and eating cake, and Gaelic was to be heard. Eilidh organised that lunch to keep Gaelic alive and give people an opportunity to come together and speak Gaelic. Interestingly, there were pupils there from Perth. They were visiting Skye for a week, during which they were learning Gaelic and participating in other things with their Gaelic teacher. There are not many Gaelic pupils at Perth academy, and they were surprised to hear Gaelic in a local community. That shows how important it is that we have Gaelic development officers and that, if those traditional communities are not there, Gaelic will not be kept alive. As I said at the beginning, Gaelic has never returned to a community where it has become extinct, so if we want to keep Gaelic alive, we need to give communities such as Kilmuir, on Skye, more support. Ross Greer said that the status of the language is important. That is, of course, undeniable. There is work that we can do—work that we are trying to do through the bill—and we are looking for other opportunities and for more funding, if that is required. We are also looking to give good strong guidelines to organisations. Everything is important, but one of our priorities is making progress in the number of people in communities speaking Gaelic and in the level of fluency in Gaelic. The bill’s provisions have the potential to offer tangible benefits for school learning, for the economy and infrastructure, for media and community activity and for adult learning. Before I draw to a close, I thank the committee for its detailed and supportive comments. We have also been well supported by all those who took the time to contribute to the Scottish Government’s consultation exercise, and those who submitted evidence to the committee.

Kate Forbes

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25504

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Cha do thill Gàidhlig riamh gu coimhearsnachd far an deach a call. A’ Chomraich, Strath Narann, àiteachan ann an Loch Abar, Earra-Ghàidheal agus na h-Eileanan. Chan urrainn dhuinn a chòrr choimhearsnachdan a chall. Sin an aon amas a th’ agamsa leis a’ bhile seo agus ma tha sin ag iarraidh adhartas a dhèanamh, feumaidh sinn beachdachadh air grunn cheumannan. Chan e, agus cha b’ e riamh dìreach aon cheist no aon fhuasgladh a th’ ann nuair a thig e gu Gàidhlig is Albais. Tha sin soilleir bhon deasbad seo. Agus chuidich an fharsaingeachd de dh’fhianais an fhuaras sa cho-chomhairleachadh agus na diofar chùisean air an deach coimhead ann an aithisg ìre 1. Tha iad sin uile cudromach airson an adhartais a dh’fheumas sin a dhèanamh. Thòisich Sue Webber a’ bruidhinn mu bhuidseat. Chuala mi na thuirt a’ chomataidh agus na daoine a chur seachad ùine gus fianais a thoirt dhan Riaghaltas. Ged a tha cuideam mòr air a’ bhuidseat againn an-dràsta, tha mi a’ tuigsinn dè cho cudromach ‘s a tha maoineachadh airson Gàidhlig agus Albais. Ach aig an aon àm nam bheachdsa, tha na prìomhachasan aig luchd-labhairt na Gàidhlig agus na prìomhachasan aig luchd-labhairt na Beurla uaireannan an aon rud. Taigheadas, bun-structair, còmhdhail agus bu chòir beagan den airgead a tha sinn a’ cosg air bun-structair mar sin an-dràsta a dhol nas fhaide ann an coimhearsnachdan Gàidhlig ma tha sinn airson barrachd oidhirp fhaicinn anns na coimhearsnachdan Gàidhlig traidiseanta. Chan e dìreach maoineachadh ùr a tha a dhìth oirnn—agus chuala sinn sin bho John Mason—ach a bhith a’ dèanamh cinnteach gu bheil maoineachadh a th’ anns a’ bhuidseat an-dràsta a’ dèanamh barrachd gus Gàidhlig a neartachadh anns na coimhearsnachdan traidiseanta. Bha mi cuideachd ag aontachadh ri Liam Kerr agus daoine eile gu bheil feum againn air beachdachadh air dè cho èifeachdach ’s a tha na h-iomairtean againn, na planaichean againn, na laghan againn, am bile seo. Tha an cunntas-sluaigh a’ toirt freagairtan dhuinn—tha barrachd dhaoine a’ cleachdadh a’ chànain agus tha na h-àireamhan de luchd-labhairt a’ dol suas. Ach chunnaic sinn cuideachd gu bheil de luchd-labhairt anns na sgìrean traidiseanta a’ dol sìos agus chan eil an cunntas-sluaigh a’ sealltainn dè cho fileanta ’s a tha luchd-labhairt no cho tric ‘s a tha iad a’ bruidhinn a’ chànain. Tha mi a’ beachdachadh air na trioblaidean agus na dùbhlain a thaobh na ceist mu èifeachachd. Tha mi cuideachd taingeil airson na taic a chuala mi bho Mhìcheal Marra is daoine eile. Thuirt esan gun robh an cànan ann an èiginn agus gum feumadh am bile a bhith èifeachdach. Bheachdaich e cuideachd air an aithisg a dh’fhoillsich an Riaghaltas air na cothroman eaconomagach is sòisealta airson na Gàidhlig agus sin as adhbhar gu bheil mi uamhasach taiceil ri oifigearan leasachaidh Gàidhlig. As t-Samhradh, bha mi ann an Cille Mhoire anns an Eilean Sgitheanach far a bheil Eilidh Rankin, aon de na h-oifigearan leasachaidh Gàidhlig an sin. Is nuair a chaidh mi sìos dhan talla anns a’ bhaile, chuala mi tòrr Gàidhlig air a bruidhinn. Bha a’ choimhearsnachd uile a’ suidhe ri chèile le brot is cèic le daoine òg is daoine nas sìne is bha Gàidhlig ri cluinntinn. Chuir Eilidh an lunch sin air dòigh gus Gàidhlig a chumail beò – àite far a bheil daoine aig a bheil Gàidhlig a’ tighinn ri chèile agus a’ bruidhinn Gàidhlig. Gu h-inntinneach, bha sgoilearan bho bhaile Pheairt ann cuideachd agus bha iadsan anns an Eilean Sgitheanach airson seachdain airson a bhith ag ionnsachadh na Gàidhlig agus a bhith a’ dèanamh diofar rudan leis an tidsear Gàidhlig aca. Chan eil mòran sgoilearan Gàidhlig ann an Acadamaidh Pheairt, agus bha iongnadh orra Gàidhlig a chluinntinn anns a’ choimhearsnachd san fharsaingeachd. Agus tha sinn a’ sealltainn dè cho cudromach ’s a tha e gu bheil oifigearan leasachaidh againn agus tha e cuideachd a’ sealltainn mura h-eil coimhearsanchdan traidiseanta ann, cha bhi Gàidhlig beò. Mar a thuirt mi aig an toiseach, cha do thill Gàidhlig riamh gu coimhearsnachd far an deach a call. Ma tha sinn airson Gàidhlig a chumail beò, tha sin a’ ciallachadh gu bheil na coimhearsnachdan mar Chille Mhoire feumach air barrachd taic. Thuirt Ross Greer gun robh inbhe a’ chànain cudromach agus tha sin fìor gun teagamh sam bith ’S urrainn dhuinn obair a dhèanamh air a’ bhile mar a tha sinn a’ feuchainn ri dhèanamh agus aig an aon àm a bhith ag obair tro iomairtean eile, a’ lorg barrachd maoineachaidh ma tha sin a dhìth oirnn agus a’ stèidheachadh stiùireadh soilleir airson buidhnean poblach. Chan e taghadh a th’ ann—tha a h-uile càil cudromach—’s e an aon phrìomhachas againn uile a bhith a’ faicinnn adhartas air na h-àireamhan, air na coimhearsnachdan agus cuideachd air an ìre de dh’fhileantas. Le cumhachan a’ bhile seo ’s urrainnear buannachdan brìoghmhor a ghleidheadh airson sgoiltean is ionnsachadh, an eaconamaidh is bun-structair, na meadhanan, iomairtean coimhearsnachd agus ionnsachadh do dh’inbhich. Mus crìochnaich mi, bu mhath leam mo thaing a thoirt dhan chomataidh airson nam beachdan mionaideach is taiceil aca. Cuideachd, fhuair sinn tòrr taice bho na daoine a ghabh pàirt ann an co-chomhairleachadh Riaghaltas na h-Alba agus a thug fianais seachad dhan chomataidh. Following is the simultaneous interpretation: Gaelic has never returned to a community from which it has been lost, such as parts of Argyll, Lochaber and the islands. We cannot lose the language in more communities. That is my aim with the bill. If we want there to be progress, we have to make changes in different places. For Gaelic and Scots, it has never been a case of there being one issue and one solution. That is clear in the debate, and when we consider the broad range of evidence that was submitted to the committee during its consultation, as well as the range of issues that were highlighted in its stage 1 report. All those are important for the progress that we need to make. Sue Webber spoke about budget. I have heard what the committee said in the evidence that it gave to the Government. Much has been said about funding, because it is important for Scots and Gaelic. The priorities for Gaelic speakers and Scots speakers are based on similar things, such as housing, infrastructure, energy and transport. If we spent on Gaelic anything similar to what we spend on infrastructure in those communities, we would see more progress. As we heard from John Mason, we do not just need new funding and investment; we need to spend the money in the budget more effectively to strengthen Gaelic in traditional communities. I agree with Liam Kerr and others that we need to think about how effective our strategies, plans and laws, including the bill, are. The census gives us an answer. More people are using Gaelic. The number of Gaelic speakers has gone up, but the number of Gaelic speakers in traditional communities has gone down. The census does not show how fluent a Gaelic speaker is or how often they speak the language, so it is important to consider how effective things are. I am thankful for the support that I got from Michael Marra and others. He said that the language is in a state of emergency and that the bill could be useful, and he discussed the economic opportunities in relation to Gaelic. That is why I am very thankful for Gaelic development officers. This summer, I was in Kilmuir, in the north of Skye, where Eilidh Rankin is one of the Gaelic development officers. When I visited the local hall there, I heard a lot of Gaelic being spoken. Members of the community—young people and older people—were sitting together having soup and eating cake, and Gaelic was to be heard. Eilidh organised that lunch to keep Gaelic alive and give people an opportunity to come together and speak Gaelic. Interestingly, there were pupils there from Perth. They were visiting Skye for a week, during which they were learning Gaelic and participating in other things with their Gaelic teacher. There are not many Gaelic pupils at Perth academy, and they were surprised to hear Gaelic in a local community. That shows how important it is that we have Gaelic development officers and that, if those traditional communities are not there, Gaelic will not be kept alive. As I said at the beginning, Gaelic has never returned to a community where it has become extinct, so if we want to keep Gaelic alive, we need to give communities such as Kilmuir, on Skye, more support. Ross Greer said that the status of the language is important. That is, of course, undeniable. There is work that we can do—work that we are trying to do through the bill—and we are looking for other opportunities and for more funding, if that is required. We are also looking to give good strong guidelines to organisations. Everything is important, but one of our priorities is making progress in the number of people in communities speaking Gaelic and in the level of fluency in Gaelic. The bill’s provisions have the potential to offer tangible benefits for school learning, for the economy and infrastructure, for media and community activity and for adult learning. Before I draw to a close, I thank the committee for its detailed and supportive comments. We have also been well supported by all those who took the time to contribute to the Scottish Government’s consultation exercise, and those who submitted evidence to the committee.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.90

Will the cabinet secretary comment on Foysol Choudhury’s comments regarding Gaelic-medium education teachers and how we might address the challenge that we have on that issue?

Sue Webber

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26017

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Will the cabinet secretary comment on Foysol Choudhury’s comments regarding Gaelic-medium education teachers and how we might address the challenge that we have on that issue?

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.91

Tha sin uabhasach cudromach. Bha mi a’ bruidhinn ri cuideigin an-diugh fhèin agus tha dithis chloinne aige a tha a-nis a’ dol tron oilthigh airson a bhith nan tidseraran Gàidhlig. Tha sinn feumach air barrachd thidsearan Gàidhlig. Tha mi a’ smaoineachadh gu bheil dòighean ann an-dràsta fhèin airson barrachd thidsearan a lorg agus tha mi a’ tuigsinn gu bheil e uabhasach cudromach. Ma tha barrachd phàrantan ag iarraidh foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhig airson na cloinne aca tha sin a’ ciallachadh gu bheil sinn feumach air barrachd thidsearan, tha mi a’ tuigsinn sin gun teagamh sam bith. ’S iomadh turas ron seo a chunnacas taic thar-phartaidh sa Phàrlamaid seo dhan Ghàidhlig agus Albais. Agus bha dearbhadh againn air an taic sin a-rithist an-diugh agus tha mi cinnteach gu bheil sinn uile airson gun lean an taic sin. Tha mi gu math taingeil airson na taic sin bho na pàrtaidhean air fad. Tha eachdraidh a’ sealltainn dhuinn nach deach spèis a nochdadh dhan Ghàidhlig is Albais san àm a dh’fhalbh mar a bu chòir. Ach, bu chòir àite a bhith ann dhaibh ann an Alba agus anns a’ Phàrlamaid seo, agus ’s ann an urra rinne a tha e dèanamh cinnteach gun tèid aithne is taic a thoirt dhan dà chànan, agus gun tèid an cur air adhart. Air an adhbhar sin, bu mhath leam mo thaic a chur, agus moladh do na buill taic a chur, ris a’ ghluasad: Gun cuir a’ Phàrlamaid aonta ri prionnsapalan farsaing Bile nan Cànan Albannach. Following is the simultaneous interpretation: That is very important. Just today, I spoke to somebody about the issue. He had two children who are now in university and who are trying to become Gaelic teachers. We need more Gaelic teachers. There are currently ways for us to find teachers, but the issue is very important. If more parents want to have Gaelic-medium education for their children, that means that we need to have more teachers—I understand that. We have seen so much cross-party support on the issue. That has been demonstrated again today, and I am sure that we all want it to continue. I am very thankful for that support from all the parties. History does not demonstrate a good record of respect for Gaelic and Scots, but they both belong in Scotland and in this Parliament. The responsibility sits with us to ensure that both languages are recognised, promoted and supported. For that reason, I support and commend to members the motion: That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Scottish Languages Bill.

Kate Forbes

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25504

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

Tha sin uabhasach cudromach. Bha mi a’ bruidhinn ri cuideigin an-diugh fhèin agus tha dithis chloinne aige a tha a-nis a’ dol tron oilthigh airson a bhith nan tidseraran Gàidhlig. Tha sinn feumach air barrachd thidsearan Gàidhlig. Tha mi a’ smaoineachadh gu bheil dòighean ann an-dràsta fhèin airson barrachd thidsearan a lorg agus tha mi a’ tuigsinn gu bheil e uabhasach cudromach. Ma tha barrachd phàrantan ag iarraidh foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhig airson na cloinne aca tha sin a’ ciallachadh gu bheil sinn feumach air barrachd thidsearan, tha mi a’ tuigsinn sin gun teagamh sam bith. ’S iomadh turas ron seo a chunnacas taic thar-phartaidh sa Phàrlamaid seo dhan Ghàidhlig agus Albais. Agus bha dearbhadh againn air an taic sin a-rithist an-diugh agus tha mi cinnteach gu bheil sinn uile airson gun lean an taic sin. Tha mi gu math taingeil airson na taic sin bho na pàrtaidhean air fad. Tha eachdraidh a’ sealltainn dhuinn nach deach spèis a nochdadh dhan Ghàidhlig is Albais san àm a dh’fhalbh mar a bu chòir. Ach, bu chòir àite a bhith ann dhaibh ann an Alba agus anns a’ Phàrlamaid seo, agus ’s ann an urra rinne a tha e dèanamh cinnteach gun tèid aithne is taic a thoirt dhan dà chànan, agus gun tèid an cur air adhart. Air an adhbhar sin, bu mhath leam mo thaic a chur, agus moladh do na buill taic a chur, ris a’ ghluasad: Gun cuir a’ Phàrlamaid aonta ri prionnsapalan farsaing Bile nan Cànan Albannach. Following is the simultaneous interpretation: That is very important. Just today, I spoke to somebody about the issue. He had two children who are now in university and who are trying to become Gaelic teachers. We need more Gaelic teachers. There are currently ways for us to find teachers, but the issue is very important. If more parents want to have Gaelic-medium education for their children, that means that we need to have more teachers—I understand that. We have seen so much cross-party support on the issue. That has been demonstrated again today, and I am sure that we all want it to continue. I am very thankful for that support from all the parties. History does not demonstrate a good record of respect for Gaelic and Scots, but they both belong in Scotland and in this Parliament. The responsibility sits with us to ensure that both languages are recognised, promoted and supported. For that reason, I support and commend to members the motion: That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Scottish Languages Bill.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.4.92

That concludes the debate on the Scottish Languages Bill at stage 1. There will be a short pause before we move on to the next item of business, to allow the front-bench teams to change position.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

That concludes the debate on the Scottish Languages Bill at stage 1. There will be a short pause before we move on to the next item of business, to allow the front-bench teams to change position.

b09d6476-c1d8-428c-bbf1-3d0a76441356

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-17.5.1

There is one question to be put as a result of today’s business. The question is, that motion S6M-14484, in the name of Kate Forbes, on the Scottish Languages Bill at stage 1, be agreed to. Motion agreed to, That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Scottish Languages Bill. Members’ business will be published tomorrow, [18 September 2024], as soon as the text is available.

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25091

Decision Time

There is one question to be put as a result of today’s business. The question is, that motion S6M-14484, in the name of Kate Forbes, on the Scottish Languages Bill at stage 1, be agreed to. Motion agreed to, That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Scottish Languages Bill. Members’ business will be published tomorrow, [18 September 2024], as soon as the text is available.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.2

Good afternoon. The first item of business is portfolio question time, and the first portfolio is constitution, external affairs and culture, and parliamentary business.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

Good afternoon. The first item of business is portfolio question time, and the first portfolio is constitution, external affairs and culture, and parliamentary business.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.4

To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with Channel 4 in relation to increasing its made outside England quota from 9 per cent to 16 per cent in line with population breakdown, as called for by Pact, the independent television representative body. (S6O-03717)

1. Douglas Lumsden (North East Scotland) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26001

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with Channel 4 in relation to increasing its made outside England quota from 9 per cent to 16 per cent in line with population breakdown, as called for by Pact, the independent television representative body. (S6O-03717)

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.5

Scottish Government officials have met Channel 4 on several occasions, and I met the chief executive of Channel 4 on 23 May. In our communications with Channel 4 and the regulator, Ofcom, including letters that were sent on 26 April, 25 June and 28 August, we have challenged the inadequate made outside England quotas that are proposed and have set out our expectation that they should be increased to at least 16 per cent, with individual nation quotas. The Scottish Government also responded to both of Ofcom’s consultations on 14 February and 28 August to set out those views.

The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

Scottish Government officials have met Channel 4 on several occasions, and I met the chief executive of Channel 4 on 23 May. In our communications with Channel 4 and the regulator, Ofcom, including letters that were sent on 26 April, 25 June and 28 August, we have challenged the inadequate made outside England quotas that are proposed and have set out our expectation that they should be increased to at least 16 per cent, with individual nation quotas. The Scottish Government also responded to both of Ofcom’s consultations on 14 February and 28 August to set out those views.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.6

I am sure that the cabinet secretary shares my anger that Ofcom, instead of proceeding with a 16 per cent quota, chose to proceed with a 12 per cent quota, and even that will not apply until 2030. That will mean that 25 per cent fewer programmes will be made in Scotland and 25 per cent fewer people will be involved than would have been the case if the quota had been accepted. Scottish freelancers in the independent TV industry are really hurting, and many are being forced out of the industry. What more can the Government do, in conjunction with Pact and Screen Scotland, to protect the industry as it goes through a difficult time?

Douglas Lumsden

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26001

Portfolio Question Time

I am sure that the cabinet secretary shares my anger that Ofcom, instead of proceeding with a 16 per cent quota, chose to proceed with a 12 per cent quota, and even that will not apply until 2030. That will mean that 25 per cent fewer programmes will be made in Scotland and 25 per cent fewer people will be involved than would have been the case if the quota had been accepted. Scottish freelancers in the independent TV industry are really hurting, and many are being forced out of the industry. What more can the Government do, in conjunction with Pact and Screen Scotland, to protect the industry as it goes through a difficult time?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.7

I commend Douglas Lumsden for his question and the way in which he framed it. The difference between 12 per cent and 16 per cent might not seem much to people who do not understand how much that is worth but, as he pointed out, the proposed quota represents a 25 per cent underspend, which would have an impact on the television sector in Scotland that would not be welcomed. Douglas Lumsden asked what more we can do. One thing that has become increasingly apparent is that, in addition to the fact that the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government, the Northern Ireland Government and our screen agencies are making the very same points that he has made, we are hearing voices from across Parliaments doing exactly the same thing. I commend him and colleagues in his party and in other parties who are making that point. The more people who make that point between now and final decisions, the better chance we have of getting fairness for spending in Scotland by Channel 4, which we worked so hard to secure in relation to spending in Scotland by the BBC.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

I commend Douglas Lumsden for his question and the way in which he framed it. The difference between 12 per cent and 16 per cent might not seem much to people who do not understand how much that is worth but, as he pointed out, the proposed quota represents a 25 per cent underspend, which would have an impact on the television sector in Scotland that would not be welcomed. Douglas Lumsden asked what more we can do. One thing that has become increasingly apparent is that, in addition to the fact that the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government, the Northern Ireland Government and our screen agencies are making the very same points that he has made, we are hearing voices from across Parliaments doing exactly the same thing. I commend him and colleagues in his party and in other parties who are making that point. The more people who make that point between now and final decisions, the better chance we have of getting fairness for spending in Scotland by Channel 4, which we worked so hard to secure in relation to spending in Scotland by the BBC.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.9

To ask the Scottish Government whether it has had any discussions with organisations in the arts and culture sector since the publication of “Programme for Government 2024-25”. (S6O-03718) I note my entry in the register of members’ interests as a supporter of the arts.

2. Alexander Burnett (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25495

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government whether it has had any discussions with organisations in the arts and culture sector since the publication of “Programme for Government 2024-25”. (S6O-03718) I note my entry in the register of members’ interests as a supporter of the arts.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.10

Scottish Government officials and ministers are in regular contact with key stakeholders across the arts and culture sector as part of the normal business of Government. Such engagement has continued since the publication of the programme for government on 4 September.

The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

Scottish Government officials and ministers are in regular contact with key stakeholders across the arts and culture sector as part of the normal business of Government. Such engagement has continued since the publication of the programme for government on 4 September.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.11

In the past two years, the Scottish National Party Government has repeatedly cut Creative Scotland’s budget, only to restore it after a backlash, sometimes framing those reversals as new investment. The recent restoration of the open fund is the latest example of that, after a joint campaign by 150 arts organisations, including Deveron Projects and the Barn in my constituency. Does the cabinet secretary understand how that misleads the sector and undermines trust in the Government?

Alexander Burnett

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25495

Portfolio Question Time

In the past two years, the Scottish National Party Government has repeatedly cut Creative Scotland’s budget, only to restore it after a backlash, sometimes framing those reversals as new investment. The recent restoration of the open fund is the latest example of that, after a joint campaign by 150 arts organisations, including Deveron Projects and the Barn in my constituency. Does the cabinet secretary understand how that misleads the sector and undermines trust in the Government?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.12

I gently point out to Alexander Burnett that it would be misleading to claim that there has been a reduction in culture spending in Scotland, because spending in culture and the arts in Scotland is up. I appreciate that everybody who cares about the arts and culture sector wishes to see that rise in spending. A commitment has been laid out to a growth of an annual amount of £100 million, which would be a tremendous boost to the sector. It is really important to recognise that, notwithstanding the pressures and the difficulties, this Government is raising culture spending. I contrast that with the position of the previous and the present United Kingdom Government, which is cutting the spending of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in England, and the Welsh Labour Government, which is cutting funding in Wales. In Scotland, we are increasing funding in culture, and we are trying to do so as quickly as we can.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

I gently point out to Alexander Burnett that it would be misleading to claim that there has been a reduction in culture spending in Scotland, because spending in culture and the arts in Scotland is up. I appreciate that everybody who cares about the arts and culture sector wishes to see that rise in spending. A commitment has been laid out to a growth of an annual amount of £100 million, which would be a tremendous boost to the sector. It is really important to recognise that, notwithstanding the pressures and the difficulties, this Government is raising culture spending. I contrast that with the position of the previous and the present United Kingdom Government, which is cutting the spending of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in England, and the Welsh Labour Government, which is cutting funding in Wales. In Scotland, we are increasing funding in culture, and we are trying to do so as quickly as we can.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.13

I have three requests for supplementary questions, and I intend to take all three.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

I have three requests for supplementary questions, and I intend to take all three.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.14

The cabinet secretary will be aware of the dispute between the Paisley Art Institute and OneRen, which has resulted in the looming possibility of highly valuable local artworks being auctioned off next week. A number of constituents—including the artist Eilidh Montague, who has started a petition—feel passionately that artworks that have been gifted to Paisley should not be lost to the town, through either their sale or their being moved to Glasgow, as has been suggested. Once they are gone, they are gone. Will the Scottish Government look urgently and closely at the issue and offer to convene talks between the two parties to try to find a positive resolution?

Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25076

Portfolio Question Time

The cabinet secretary will be aware of the dispute between the Paisley Art Institute and OneRen, which has resulted in the looming possibility of highly valuable local artworks being auctioned off next week. A number of constituents—including the artist Eilidh Montague, who has started a petition—feel passionately that artworks that have been gifted to Paisley should not be lost to the town, through either their sale or their being moved to Glasgow, as has been suggested. Once they are gone, they are gone. Will the Scottish Government look urgently and closely at the issue and offer to convene talks between the two parties to try to find a positive resolution?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.15

I thank Neil Bibby for his question and for contacting me a number of days ago to highlight the issue, which is a matter of concern to him and to constituents who have raised it with him. I gave him an undertaking that I would raise the issue with senior Scottish Government officials in the culture directorate, so that we can better understand the circumstances that he has outlined to the Parliament. That work is currently being undertaken. I gave him a commitment that I would let him know, during the course of this week, what view we are able to take on the challenge that he has outlined to the Parliament. I intend to get back to him on the details and, if it would be appropriate, I would be content to update the Parliament in due course on progress on the issue. I intend to work with Neil Bibby, as I have committed to doing, in the spirit in which he raised the issue with me. I very much welcome the way in which he did so.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

I thank Neil Bibby for his question and for contacting me a number of days ago to highlight the issue, which is a matter of concern to him and to constituents who have raised it with him. I gave him an undertaking that I would raise the issue with senior Scottish Government officials in the culture directorate, so that we can better understand the circumstances that he has outlined to the Parliament. That work is currently being undertaken. I gave him a commitment that I would let him know, during the course of this week, what view we are able to take on the challenge that he has outlined to the Parliament. I intend to get back to him on the details and, if it would be appropriate, I would be content to update the Parliament in due course on progress on the issue. I intend to work with Neil Bibby, as I have committed to doing, in the spirit in which he raised the issue with me. I very much welcome the way in which he did so.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.16

The Labour Government’s austerity budget that is due in October is expected to have a substantial impact on the Scottish Government’s finances in the year ahead. Can the cabinet secretary provide further assurances that, despite the cuts that are coming from Westminster, the Scottish Government will continue to invest in the arts and culture sector? Will he provide an update on his latest engagement with the UK Government regarding future finances and the impact that its decisions will have on the Scottish Government’s spending plans?

Gordon MacDonald (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25095

Portfolio Question Time

The Labour Government’s austerity budget that is due in October is expected to have a substantial impact on the Scottish Government’s finances in the year ahead. Can the cabinet secretary provide further assurances that, despite the cuts that are coming from Westminster, the Scottish Government will continue to invest in the arts and culture sector? Will he provide an update on his latest engagement with the UK Government regarding future finances and the impact that its decisions will have on the Scottish Government’s spending plans?

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.17

As I said, it is a matter of fact that the Scottish Government has increased culture sector funding this financial year by more than £15 million, which is the first step towards achieving the First Minister’s commitment to invest at least £100 million more annually in culture and the arts by 2028-29. The commitment to additional funding comes despite the challenging budget situation, and it signals the Scottish Government’s continued confidence in the culture sector and the value that we place on it. The Scottish budget continues to face significant challenges, and no additional funding was confirmed in the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s recent statement. As is normal practice, any consequentials will be confirmed, in early 2025, as part of the supplementary estimates process. The Scottish Government will, of course, continue to work with the new UK Government to seek clarity on any changes that might have an impact on funding in Scotland.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

As I said, it is a matter of fact that the Scottish Government has increased culture sector funding this financial year by more than £15 million, which is the first step towards achieving the First Minister’s commitment to invest at least £100 million more annually in culture and the arts by 2028-29. The commitment to additional funding comes despite the challenging budget situation, and it signals the Scottish Government’s continued confidence in the culture sector and the value that we place on it. The Scottish budget continues to face significant challenges, and no additional funding was confirmed in the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s recent statement. As is normal practice, any consequentials will be confirmed, in early 2025, as part of the supplementary estimates process. The Scottish Government will, of course, continue to work with the new UK Government to seek clarity on any changes that might have an impact on funding in Scotland.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.18

The Screen Machine, which is parked outside in Holyrood park, brings cinema to communities that would otherwise have no access to it, but, sadly, its future is under threat. Screen Scotland has provided funding to extend the current machine’s lease for two years, which is welcome, but it will take 12 to 18 months to build a new state-of-the-art machine, so the clock is ticking. A fundraising campaign has been launched to raise £100,000 from the public out of the £1.7 million that is required in total for the new machine. The campaign has support from Dame Judi Dench, Alan Cumming and Tide Lines. Without urgent intervention, our rural communities will lose their access to cinema, so what steps is the Scottish Government taking to ensure that that does not happen?

Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/14001

Portfolio Question Time

The Screen Machine, which is parked outside in Holyrood park, brings cinema to communities that would otherwise have no access to it, but, sadly, its future is under threat. Screen Scotland has provided funding to extend the current machine’s lease for two years, which is welcome, but it will take 12 to 18 months to build a new state-of-the-art machine, so the clock is ticking. A fundraising campaign has been launched to raise £100,000 from the public out of the £1.7 million that is required in total for the new machine. The campaign has support from Dame Judi Dench, Alan Cumming and Tide Lines. Without urgent intervention, our rural communities will lose their access to cinema, so what steps is the Scottish Government taking to ensure that that does not happen?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.19

I thank Rhoda Grant for her question. The Screen Machine—which matters so much, particularly to our rural and island communities—is funded by Screen Scotland, which is funded by the Scottish Government. We support the retention of that vital lifeline cultural service to rural and island Scotland. I commend Rhoda Grant for raising the fact that a fundraising drive is under way, and I encourage all members who are able to support and publicise the campaign to do so. As she did, I visited the Screen Machine outside the Scottish Parliament yesterday. I recommend that colleagues who have not yet visited it do so, because it is absolutely tremendous. I am seized of the need to ensure that the service remains in operation and that there is a replacement mobile cinema. With the help and support of colleagues across the chamber, I am encouraged that we can work towards that, which is a shared objective.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

I thank Rhoda Grant for her question. The Screen Machine—which matters so much, particularly to our rural and island communities—is funded by Screen Scotland, which is funded by the Scottish Government. We support the retention of that vital lifeline cultural service to rural and island Scotland. I commend Rhoda Grant for raising the fact that a fundraising drive is under way, and I encourage all members who are able to support and publicise the campaign to do so. As she did, I visited the Screen Machine outside the Scottish Parliament yesterday. I recommend that colleagues who have not yet visited it do so, because it is absolutely tremendous. I am seized of the need to ensure that the service remains in operation and that there is a replacement mobile cinema. With the help and support of colleagues across the chamber, I am encouraged that we can work towards that, which is a shared objective.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.21

To ask the Scottish Government how it plans to invest in supporting youth culture in the Cunninghame South constituency. (S6O-03719)

3. Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25524

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government how it plans to invest in supporting youth culture in the Cunninghame South constituency. (S6O-03719)

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.22

The Scottish Government places great importance on cultural activity in the local community. We believe that young people of all backgrounds should have the opportunity to access quality cultural services in their local area. The Scottish Government supports a range of organisations through Creative Scotland. In the Cunninghame South constituency, those include the Irvine and Dreghorn brass band and the music education partnership We Make Music libraries group, which caters to young people specifically. We also provide upwards of £190,000 in support for North Ayrshire Council’s highly regarded youth music initiative programme, which is based in Cunninghame and whose work reaches all schools in the local authority area.

The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

The Scottish Government places great importance on cultural activity in the local community. We believe that young people of all backgrounds should have the opportunity to access quality cultural services in their local area. The Scottish Government supports a range of organisations through Creative Scotland. In the Cunninghame South constituency, those include the Irvine and Dreghorn brass band and the music education partnership We Make Music libraries group, which caters to young people specifically. We also provide upwards of £190,000 in support for North Ayrshire Council’s highly regarded youth music initiative programme, which is based in Cunninghame and whose work reaches all schools in the local authority area.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.23

I welcome the fact that the Scottish Government is increasing funding for culture. Arts and culture are integral parts of a thriving community. This summer, I had the pleasure of visiting Impact Arts, where I saw at first hand the vital work that it does to provide artistic opportunities for young people, the positive impact that it has had on their wellbeing and the prospects that it opens up to them. Does the cabinet secretary agree that money invested by the Scottish Government through Creative Scotland should be distributed across the country for the benefit of all, to ensure that the arts are developed for young people outside our main cities?

Ruth Maguire

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25524

Portfolio Question Time

I welcome the fact that the Scottish Government is increasing funding for culture. Arts and culture are integral parts of a thriving community. This summer, I had the pleasure of visiting Impact Arts, where I saw at first hand the vital work that it does to provide artistic opportunities for young people, the positive impact that it has had on their wellbeing and the prospects that it opens up to them. Does the cabinet secretary agree that money invested by the Scottish Government through Creative Scotland should be distributed across the country for the benefit of all, to ensure that the arts are developed for young people outside our main cities?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.24

We know that it is vital to nurture culture and creativity across all of Scotland’s communities. The funding that we provide via Creative Scotland reaches individuals, organisations and projects across the whole of Scotland. For example, our long-standing investment—of more than £150 million since 2007—in the youth music initiative continues to support and empower young people in all of Scotland’s 32 local authorities. It allows young people to access music-making and learning opportunities, with every pupil being offered a year of free music tuition by the end of primary school.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

We know that it is vital to nurture culture and creativity across all of Scotland’s communities. The funding that we provide via Creative Scotland reaches individuals, organisations and projects across the whole of Scotland. For example, our long-standing investment—of more than £150 million since 2007—in the youth music initiative continues to support and empower young people in all of Scotland’s 32 local authorities. It allows young people to access music-making and learning opportunities, with every pupil being offered a year of free music tuition by the end of primary school.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.25

Katy Clark has a supplementary question.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

Katy Clark has a supplementary question.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.26

There is no doubt that there have been significant cuts to youth services in recent years. To what extent does the cabinet secretary believe that it is the impact of cuts to councils, in North Ayrshire and elsewhere, that have led to reductions in services, including in arts and culture, that are targeted at young people?

Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11963

Portfolio Question Time

There is no doubt that there have been significant cuts to youth services in recent years. To what extent does the cabinet secretary believe that it is the impact of cuts to councils, in North Ayrshire and elsewhere, that have led to reductions in services, including in arts and culture, that are targeted at young people?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.27

I have just outlined a series of ways in which cultural provision is being delivered and protected in local authorities, including in the region that Katy Clark represents. If she has particular examples of cultural services that have been cut that I may not be aware of, I would be perfectly happy to take a look at that. I am absolutely committed to ensuring that Scotland’s culture and arts agencies, which deliver in different ways, do so right across Scotland, and that young people—no matter where they are or what their background—are given the option of participating in cultural activities. I look forward to the member reaching out to me with any information that she may have.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

I have just outlined a series of ways in which cultural provision is being delivered and protected in local authorities, including in the region that Katy Clark represents. If she has particular examples of cultural services that have been cut that I may not be aware of, I would be perfectly happy to take a look at that. I am absolutely committed to ensuring that Scotland’s culture and arts agencies, which deliver in different ways, do so right across Scotland, and that young people—no matter where they are or what their background—are given the option of participating in cultural activities. I look forward to the member reaching out to me with any information that she may have.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.29

To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with the UK Government about improving relations with the European Union, including on rejoining the single market and customs union. (S6O-03720)

4. Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25114

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with the UK Government about improving relations with the European Union, including on rejoining the single market and customs union. (S6O-03720)

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.30

The Scottish Government’s long-standing position is that rejoining the single market and the customs union, at the earliest opportunity and as an independent country, represents the best future for Scotland. Brexit has been and continues to be a disaster for Scotland. I have conveyed to the current UK Government that I welcome its intention to reset the relationship with the EU, and I have made it clear that we must do all that we can to reduce the harm of Brexit wherever possible. The Scottish Government will continue to advocate rejoining the European Union, given the huge benefits that that would bring, including access to the world’s largest single market and customs union—a customs union that is seven times larger than the United Kingdom.

The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

The Scottish Government’s long-standing position is that rejoining the single market and the customs union, at the earliest opportunity and as an independent country, represents the best future for Scotland. Brexit has been and continues to be a disaster for Scotland. I have conveyed to the current UK Government that I welcome its intention to reset the relationship with the EU, and I have made it clear that we must do all that we can to reduce the harm of Brexit wherever possible. The Scottish Government will continue to advocate rejoining the European Union, given the huge benefits that that would bring, including access to the world’s largest single market and customs union—a customs union that is seven times larger than the United Kingdom.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.31

A decade ago today, people went to the polls to vote in the independence referendum. They had been told that, to protect our membership of the European Union, they had to vote no. That was not the case, and we found that out to our cost not long after. Is it not fair to say that, if the UK had not made the disastrous decision to leave the EU, at an estimated cost to the economy of £40 billion per annum, the proposed £22 billion of cuts from the Labour Government might have been avoided entirely?

Kevin Stewart

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25114

Portfolio Question Time

A decade ago today, people went to the polls to vote in the independence referendum. They had been told that, to protect our membership of the European Union, they had to vote no. That was not the case, and we found that out to our cost not long after. Is it not fair to say that, if the UK had not made the disastrous decision to leave the EU, at an estimated cost to the economy of £40 billion per annum, the proposed £22 billion of cuts from the Labour Government might have been avoided entirely?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.32

Kevin Stewart makes very good points. It is a statement of fact that the Scottish electorate was mis-sold in 2014. It was told that it should vote no to protect Scotland’s place in the European Union. Since then, we have been taken out against the democratic will of the majority of people in this country. Independent research organisations and the Office for Budget Responsibility have been tracking the economic impact of Brexit since the referendum in 2016, when Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the European Union. According to analysis by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, the UK economy was 2.5 per cent smaller in 2023, and it expects that figure to rise to 5.7 per cent by 2035. That equates to around £69 billion in output and £28 billion in public revenues lost as a consequence of Brexit. That immense economic hole is a stark reminder of the price of Labour’s continued support for Brexit.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

Kevin Stewart makes very good points. It is a statement of fact that the Scottish electorate was mis-sold in 2014. It was told that it should vote no to protect Scotland’s place in the European Union. Since then, we have been taken out against the democratic will of the majority of people in this country. Independent research organisations and the Office for Budget Responsibility have been tracking the economic impact of Brexit since the referendum in 2016, when Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the European Union. According to analysis by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, the UK economy was 2.5 per cent smaller in 2023, and it expects that figure to rise to 5.7 per cent by 2035. That equates to around £69 billion in output and £28 billion in public revenues lost as a consequence of Brexit. That immense economic hole is a stark reminder of the price of Labour’s continued support for Brexit.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.34

To ask the Scottish Government what work it is doing to enhance protection of the nation’s built heritage and listed buildings. (S6O-03721)

5. Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25639

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what work it is doing to enhance protection of the nation’s built heritage and listed buildings. (S6O-03721)

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.35

I start by acknowledging Paul Sweeney’s long-standing interest in this area. The Scottish Government delivers support for the historic environment through sponsorship of Historic Environment Scotland, the lead public body for the protection and preservation of the historic environment. As reported in its 2023-24 grants funding report, Historic Environment Scotland delivers more than £13 million of grant funding each year for the protection and promotion of the historic environment in projects across Scotland.

The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

I start by acknowledging Paul Sweeney’s long-standing interest in this area. The Scottish Government delivers support for the historic environment through sponsorship of Historic Environment Scotland, the lead public body for the protection and preservation of the historic environment. As reported in its 2023-24 grants funding report, Historic Environment Scotland delivers more than £13 million of grant funding each year for the protection and promotion of the historic environment in projects across Scotland.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.36

The listed ABC venue on Sauchiehall Street was badly damaged in the second Glasgow School of Art fire in 2018 and it has lain derelict ever since. A planning application was recently submitted to build student accommodation on the site, but, within weeks, Glasgow City Council served a dangerous buildings notice on the property, slating it for full demolition. At no point was a conservation accredited engineer consulted to see whether at least the iconic entrance portico could be preserved and incorporated into the design of the new development. Similar situations have prevailed at the Ayr station hotel and, most recently, at the Hillhead Baptist church in the west end of Glasgow. For the listing process to have the weight that it should have, at the very least, it should be a necessity to consult a registered conservation engineer before any green light is given to demolition. Will the Scottish Government consider the call of Save Britain’s Heritage to make it mandatory to seek the advice of a conservation accreditation register of engineers—CARE—accredited structural engineer before any planning authority authorises demolition works?

Paul Sweeney

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25639

Portfolio Question Time

The listed ABC venue on Sauchiehall Street was badly damaged in the second Glasgow School of Art fire in 2018 and it has lain derelict ever since. A planning application was recently submitted to build student accommodation on the site, but, within weeks, Glasgow City Council served a dangerous buildings notice on the property, slating it for full demolition. At no point was a conservation accredited engineer consulted to see whether at least the iconic entrance portico could be preserved and incorporated into the design of the new development. Similar situations have prevailed at the Ayr station hotel and, most recently, at the Hillhead Baptist church in the west end of Glasgow. For the listing process to have the weight that it should have, at the very least, it should be a necessity to consult a registered conservation engineer before any green light is given to demolition. Will the Scottish Government consider the call of Save Britain’s Heritage to make it mandatory to seek the advice of a conservation accreditation register of engineers—CARE—accredited structural engineer before any planning authority authorises demolition works?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.37

Paul Sweeney has raised a number of issues and sites that include planning matters. He will be aware that Scottish Government ministers need to be careful in relation to such issues, because of our quasi-judicial role. He has raised the issue of the ABC, so it is on the public record and it is, no doubt, being looked at closely. He also raised the issue of Hillhead Baptist church. I am well aware of the detailed objection letter that he has publicised on his website and I know that there is still some time to run for objections to be handed in by constituents who might share his views. On the issues that Paul Sweeney has raised that go beyond listing and so on, I will revert to officials and write to him with a substantive response, because we all agree that we want to make sure that our historic built environment is protected as much as possible.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

Paul Sweeney has raised a number of issues and sites that include planning matters. He will be aware that Scottish Government ministers need to be careful in relation to such issues, because of our quasi-judicial role. He has raised the issue of the ABC, so it is on the public record and it is, no doubt, being looked at closely. He also raised the issue of Hillhead Baptist church. I am well aware of the detailed objection letter that he has publicised on his website and I know that there is still some time to run for objections to be handed in by constituents who might share his views. On the issues that Paul Sweeney has raised that go beyond listing and so on, I will revert to officials and write to him with a substantive response, because we all agree that we want to make sure that our historic built environment is protected as much as possible.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.38

The nature of the materials that are used in historic and listed buildings means that they require traditional skills so that restoration and maintenance can be done sympathetically. What can the Scottish Government do on flexible learning opportunities for young people in island and rural areas, so that they can access and acquire those specialist skills, which would ensure that we have a pipeline of skilled craftspeople across Scotland to help to retain and protect heritage buildings?

Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25775

Portfolio Question Time

The nature of the materials that are used in historic and listed buildings means that they require traditional skills so that restoration and maintenance can be done sympathetically. What can the Scottish Government do on flexible learning opportunities for young people in island and rural areas, so that they can access and acquire those specialist skills, which would ensure that we have a pipeline of skilled craftspeople across Scotland to help to retain and protect heritage buildings?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.39

The point that Beatrice Wishart raises is very apposite. I have often heard from colleagues with specific issues focused on stonemasonry, but other traditional skills are essential for us to maintain our historic and built environment. A lot of effort is going on behind the scenes to ensure that our places of learning at a variety of levels allow young people to accrue the skills that are necessary for those undertakings. I will write to Beatrice Wishart to update her on that. If she has any specific issues relating to her constituency or others in the wider region, I would be keen to hear from her on that.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

The point that Beatrice Wishart raises is very apposite. I have often heard from colleagues with specific issues focused on stonemasonry, but other traditional skills are essential for us to maintain our historic and built environment. A lot of effort is going on behind the scenes to ensure that our places of learning at a variety of levels allow young people to accrue the skills that are necessary for those undertakings. I will write to Beatrice Wishart to update her on that. If she has any specific issues relating to her constituency or others in the wider region, I would be keen to hear from her on that.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.41

To ask the Scottish Government how it plans to support the retention of Scotland’s public libraries. (S6O-03722)

6. Richard Leonard (Central Scotland) (Lab)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25517

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government how it plans to support the retention of Scotland’s public libraries. (S6O-03722)

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.42

Scottish Government officials work closely with the Scottish Library and Information Council, which provides leadership and advice to Scottish ministers, local authorities and the wider libraries sector. In 2022-23, 2023-24 and 2024-25, we provided funding of £665,000 to the SLIC in recognition of the importance of our public libraries and as an expression of our support for the excellent services that libraries provide. That is on top of the Scottish Government’s general revenue funding to local authorities and includes the public library improvement fund, which supports creative, sustainable and innovative public library projects throughout the whole of Scotland.

The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

Scottish Government officials work closely with the Scottish Library and Information Council, which provides leadership and advice to Scottish ministers, local authorities and the wider libraries sector. In 2022-23, 2023-24 and 2024-25, we provided funding of £665,000 to the SLIC in recognition of the importance of our public libraries and as an expression of our support for the excellent services that libraries provide. That is on top of the Scottish Government’s general revenue funding to local authorities and includes the public library improvement fund, which supports creative, sustainable and innovative public library projects throughout the whole of Scotland.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.43

I thank the cabinet secretary for his reply. Since the Government came to power, spending on our public libraries is down, book stocks are down, the number of library staff is down, and more than 120 public libraries have closed for good. Does the cabinet secretary accept that libraries matter, that they are a vital part of our children’s education, that they combat social isolation, that they can help to regenerate our towns and cities, that they represent a world beyond the market—a safe space, run not for profit but for enlightenment—and that, in a digital society, libraries are not needed less but are needed even more? If he does accept that, what does the Government intend to do about it?

Richard Leonard

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25517

Portfolio Question Time

I thank the cabinet secretary for his reply. Since the Government came to power, spending on our public libraries is down, book stocks are down, the number of library staff is down, and more than 120 public libraries have closed for good. Does the cabinet secretary accept that libraries matter, that they are a vital part of our children’s education, that they combat social isolation, that they can help to regenerate our towns and cities, that they represent a world beyond the market—a safe space, run not for profit but for enlightenment—and that, in a digital society, libraries are not needed less but are needed even more? If he does accept that, what does the Government intend to do about it?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.44

I agree entirely with everything that we just heard about the importance of libraries for both individuals and communities. That is why—Richard Leonard heard my initial answer—the Scottish Government has committed the resources that it has committed to protect and support the provision of library services across Scotland. There is also an onus on local government to maintain provision—he knows that as well I do—and we need to work in partnership to ensure that we maintain libraries as a service the length and breadth of Scotland. If Richard Leonard wishes to highlight any particular issues, I ask him to get in touch with me. Perhaps at the next vote on the Scottish Government’s budget he might wish to exercise his vote to support the resources that are being put into libraries.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

I agree entirely with everything that we just heard about the importance of libraries for both individuals and communities. That is why—Richard Leonard heard my initial answer—the Scottish Government has committed the resources that it has committed to protect and support the provision of library services across Scotland. There is also an onus on local government to maintain provision—he knows that as well I do—and we need to work in partnership to ensure that we maintain libraries as a service the length and breadth of Scotland. If Richard Leonard wishes to highlight any particular issues, I ask him to get in touch with me. Perhaps at the next vote on the Scottish Government’s budget he might wish to exercise his vote to support the resources that are being put into libraries.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.45

I hope to take all three requests for supplementary questions, but I need co-operation in the form of brief questions and brief answers.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

I hope to take all three requests for supplementary questions, but I need co-operation in the form of brief questions and brief answers.

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uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.46

Local authorities have a statutory duty to provide adequate public library services, and the Labour administration of South Lanarkshire Council is overseeing the closure of three libraries in my constituency in Cambuslang, Halfway and Blantyre, which represents 75 per cent of the main libraries in my constituency. That is happening despite residents’ deep concern about the impact that the closures will have. Does the minister agree that it is crucial that local authorities maintain the strategic overview of library services, even if they are commissioned by arm’s-length bodies, and that meaningful consultation with communities must precede any service changes?

Clare Haughey (Rutherglen) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25513

Portfolio Question Time

Local authorities have a statutory duty to provide adequate public library services, and the Labour administration of South Lanarkshire Council is overseeing the closure of three libraries in my constituency in Cambuslang, Halfway and Blantyre, which represents 75 per cent of the main libraries in my constituency. That is happening despite residents’ deep concern about the impact that the closures will have. Does the minister agree that it is crucial that local authorities maintain the strategic overview of library services, even if they are commissioned by arm’s-length bodies, and that meaningful consultation with communities must precede any service changes?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.47

Given the rhetoric that we heard a moment ago, it is very disappointing to hear that Labour local authorities, such as Clare Haughey’s own, are cutting library services and closing libraries. Public libraries in Scotland are devolved to local authorities, and they have a statutory duty to ensure that there is adequate provision of library services for residents. However, the Scottish Government recognises the significant financial pressures and community-level impacts that flow from 14 years of Westminster austerity. The Labour Government has confirmed that it is to continue that austerity, with £22 billion-worth of public spending cuts. With all roads leading back to Westminster, as we hear and as the Labour Government acknowledges, the First Minister has been clear that we need an injection of investment in our public services, not more cuts.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

Given the rhetoric that we heard a moment ago, it is very disappointing to hear that Labour local authorities, such as Clare Haughey’s own, are cutting library services and closing libraries. Public libraries in Scotland are devolved to local authorities, and they have a statutory duty to ensure that there is adequate provision of library services for residents. However, the Scottish Government recognises the significant financial pressures and community-level impacts that flow from 14 years of Westminster austerity. The Labour Government has confirmed that it is to continue that austerity, with £22 billion-worth of public spending cuts. With all roads leading back to Westminster, as we hear and as the Labour Government acknowledges, the First Minister has been clear that we need an injection of investment in our public services, not more cuts.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.48

SNP Government cuts have led to a 14 per cent reduction in Scotland’s public libraries, with the public library improvement fund addressing only a fraction of the funding problems that they face. What specific action will the cabinet secretary take to address the on-going impact of those cuts, beyond the scope of that fund?

Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25538

Portfolio Question Time

SNP Government cuts have led to a 14 per cent reduction in Scotland’s public libraries, with the public library improvement fund addressing only a fraction of the funding problems that they face. What specific action will the cabinet secretary take to address the on-going impact of those cuts, beyond the scope of that fund?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.49

I will tell you what, Presiding Officer, I am certainly not going to take any lessons on supporting public services from the party of austerity. It really does take a—[Interruption.] It really does take—[Interruption.] It really does take a brass neck—[Interruption.]

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

I will tell you what, Presiding Officer, I am certainly not going to take any lessons on supporting public services from the party of austerity. It really does take a—[Interruption.] It really does take—[Interruption.] It really does take a brass neck—[Interruption.]

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.50

Mr Stewart! Cabinet secretary—please resume.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

Mr Stewart! Cabinet secretary—please resume.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.51

It really does take a brass neck to do that, and no matter how much one shouts on the issue, it does not get us beyond the fact that it was the UK Conservative Party that implemented austerity. The impact on public spending has been felt the length and breadth of the UK, including Scotland, so I encourage Alexander Stewart to recant on the austerity that his party has been responsible for and to, at least, acknowledge that that might have some impact on the level of public funding in the UK—not least in England, where, under his party’s responsibility, cuts to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have been vast.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

It really does take a brass neck to do that, and no matter how much one shouts on the issue, it does not get us beyond the fact that it was the UK Conservative Party that implemented austerity. The impact on public spending has been felt the length and breadth of the UK, including Scotland, so I encourage Alexander Stewart to recant on the austerity that his party has been responsible for and to, at least, acknowledge that that might have some impact on the level of public funding in the UK—not least in England, where, under his party’s responsibility, cuts to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have been vast.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.52

Is it not the reality that since the Conservatives came to power in 2010, the number of UK libraries has fallen dramatically under the austerity agenda? What assessment has been made of the impact of Tory-led budget cuts on public libraries in Scotland, as well as of the future impact and consequences of the continued austerity measures that the Labour Party supports?

George Adam (Paisley) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25072

Portfolio Question Time

Is it not the reality that since the Conservatives came to power in 2010, the number of UK libraries has fallen dramatically under the austerity agenda? What assessment has been made of the impact of Tory-led budget cuts on public libraries in Scotland, as well as of the future impact and consequences of the continued austerity measures that the Labour Party supports?

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.53

If people did not already understand, it is becoming ever clearer that the austerity politics—the reduction of and constraints on public funding in the United Kingdom—have an impact—[Interruption.] I do not understand why Conservative members are shaking their heads. That is a matter of financial fact. UK Government austerity is having a significant impact on public spending in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is a fact. It would be good if Conservative members and others at least recognised that austerity has an impact on public services, including libraries. I and my colleagues will not cease pointing that out to the Parliament and the public, given that that is why people voted to get rid of the Conservatives and believed that change was coming with Labour—which, sadly, it did not.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

If people did not already understand, it is becoming ever clearer that the austerity politics—the reduction of and constraints on public funding in the United Kingdom—have an impact—[Interruption.] I do not understand why Conservative members are shaking their heads. That is a matter of financial fact. UK Government austerity is having a significant impact on public spending in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is a fact. It would be good if Conservative members and others at least recognised that austerity has an impact on public services, including libraries. I and my colleagues will not cease pointing that out to the Parliament and the public, given that that is why people voted to get rid of the Conservatives and believed that change was coming with Labour—which, sadly, it did not.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.54

I can squeeze in question 7, but I need co-operation to have brief questions and answers.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

I can squeeze in question 7, but I need co-operation to have brief questions and answers.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.56

To ask the Scottish Government, regarding any impact on the development of its constitutional policy and strategy, what its position is on whether the promises made by the leaders of the three main United Kingdom unionist parties prior to the 2014 independence referendum, known as the vow, have been kept. (S6O-03723)

7. Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13994

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government, regarding any impact on the development of its constitutional policy and strategy, what its position is on whether the promises made by the leaders of the three main United Kingdom unionist parties prior to the 2014 independence referendum, known as the vow, have been kept. (S6O-03723)

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.57

Following the Smith commission, the Parliament received some additional powers—far less than what was promised 10 years ago in the lead up to the independence referendum. We have used those powers to improve the lives of the people of Scotland. However, the last UK Government demonstrated that Westminster could block those powers at the drop of a hat. We know that the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, breaches of the Sewel convention and interventions in devolved policies and spending are evidence of that. There is now an opportunity for the current UK Government to address the damage that its predecessor inflicted. We stand ready to work with it to reset the relationship, and to protect and enhance the powers of this Parliament.

The Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture (Angus Robertson)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

Following the Smith commission, the Parliament received some additional powers—far less than what was promised 10 years ago in the lead up to the independence referendum. We have used those powers to improve the lives of the people of Scotland. However, the last UK Government demonstrated that Westminster could block those powers at the drop of a hat. We know that the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, breaches of the Sewel convention and interventions in devolved policies and spending are evidence of that. There is now an opportunity for the current UK Government to address the damage that its predecessor inflicted. We stand ready to work with it to reset the relationship, and to protect and enhance the powers of this Parliament.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.58

A decade on, in budget terms, the Scottish Parliament has no control whatsoever over VAT; national insurance; corporation tax; inheritance tax; fuel, tobacco and alcohol duty; and so on, yet Rishi Sunak, Alister Jack and Ian Murray, who is the new Secretary of State for Scotland, preposterously described the Parliament as “the most powerful devolved Parliament in the world.” Does the cabinet secretary agree that the Parliament’s powers pale in comparison to those of the states in the United States, German Länders, Swiss cantons, Canadian provinces and Australian states, all of which have constitutionally embedded rights and sweeping powers over taxation and spending? That is not to mention British Crown dependencies such as the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey.

Kenneth Gibson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/13994

Portfolio Question Time

A decade on, in budget terms, the Scottish Parliament has no control whatsoever over VAT; national insurance; corporation tax; inheritance tax; fuel, tobacco and alcohol duty; and so on, yet Rishi Sunak, Alister Jack and Ian Murray, who is the new Secretary of State for Scotland, preposterously described the Parliament as “the most powerful devolved Parliament in the world.” Does the cabinet secretary agree that the Parliament’s powers pale in comparison to those of the states in the United States, German Länders, Swiss cantons, Canadian provinces and Australian states, all of which have constitutionally embedded rights and sweeping powers over taxation and spending? That is not to mention British Crown dependencies such as the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.59

Kenneth Gibson is absolutely right: perhaps that will end the nonsensical claims to the contrary by some members of the Parliament. With the limited powers that were handed to the Scottish Parliament under the Smith commission, the Scottish Government has made a real difference in areas where Westminster has not. Policies that Social Security Scotland administers, such as the Scottish child payment, are helping to keep an estimated 100,000 children out of poverty in Scotland. There is a growing demand for further devolution of powers to Scotland in areas including employment rights, immigration and drugs law, based on the understanding that the Scottish Government can legislate only with the best interests of the people of Scotland at heart. The same cannot be said for Westminster.

Angus Robertson

uk.org.publicwhip/person/11189

Portfolio Question Time

Kenneth Gibson is absolutely right: perhaps that will end the nonsensical claims to the contrary by some members of the Parliament. With the limited powers that were handed to the Scottish Parliament under the Smith commission, the Scottish Government has made a real difference in areas where Westminster has not. Policies that Social Security Scotland administers, such as the Scottish child payment, are helping to keep an estimated 100,000 children out of poverty in Scotland. There is a growing demand for further devolution of powers to Scotland in areas including employment rights, immigration and drugs law, based on the understanding that the Scottish Government can legislate only with the best interests of the people of Scotland at heart. The same cannot be said for Westminster.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.60

Question 8 has not been lodged. That concludes portfolio questions on constitution, external affairs and culture, and parliamentary business. There will be a short pause before we move to the next portfolio to allow front-bench teams to change positions.

The Deputy Presiding Officer

uk.org.publicwhip/person/25085

Portfolio Question Time

Question 8 has not been lodged. That concludes portfolio questions on constitution, external affairs and culture, and parliamentary business. There will be a short pause before we move to the next portfolio to allow front-bench teams to change positions.

5ef48c8e-9289-440c-9f21-9bacd21ebb5d

uk.org.publicwhip/spor/2024-09-18.0.63

To ask the Scottish Government what assessment it has made of police service strength, in light of the decrease in Police Scotland’s officer numbers. (S6O-03725)

1. Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con)

uk.org.publicwhip/person/26018

Portfolio Question Time

To ask the Scottish Government what assessment it has made of police service strength, in light of the decrease in Police Scotland’s officer numbers. (S6O-03725)