As-salamu alaykum. How are you? Good.
So today, after listening to your reports, And
we're planning to continue the debate we started
last time. But this time, we are having a leader.
So we are two leaders, me and Ms. Ahlam. We are
going to debate. So she's going to choose a team
or anybody who can go with her and come with me.
And I ask you, if you remember last time, to
search more. But before we start, I would be
interested in listening to one report of yours.
I want a different guess.
Just come here, come here. Being absent for two
sequential quarter lectures is something you can't
describe, especially after your admiration to each
word given in the class. Yeah, I was absent for
two days and I didn't come to the university
because of some syndromic circumstances. They told
me about the collection of reports and the
repetitive marks. Anyway, I watched the videos and
they wrote my report, which is something necessary
in my day. What happened in the last lecture
remind me of what we did in Marlow and Relief, but
now it is different. It's between two ideas or two
themes in the same poem. We have to decide if this
poem is about the industrial revolution or the
poetic imagination. Two groups were debated and
both of them gave good arguments and answers. For
me, I really got confused. I am really confused
that you can't say it is something for
revolutionary poetry, because it's written in the
revolution time. Ordinarily, the poem will
represent the beginning of industrial revolution.
However, when you see the words or the poems
itself, you can, it comes to your mind that it is
talks, it talks about the botic imagination. I
really don't know, but for sure, after well
analysis and my search and study, I will hopefully
will reach the point. Thereafter, Dr. Habib shows
some videos that describe how England was and how
the industrial revolution changed everything, even
the purity of countryside. Good, thank you very
much. Yes, it seems like we succeeded in like
buffling you because that was the intention, like
to baffle you and to make you research more.
Because yes, you don't know what is it about. So
you have to research and to see what is it about.
Okay, yes. Jihan, do you want to redeem yourself
because you keep absent? And you don't like to see
the surprises? Do you know what the surprise? It
sounds like a bad one. No, no, no. Okay. Okay.
It's a good one. You come here. Okay, this is more
unbuffled as well. Tiger, tiger by Blake's hand In
the night the eyes do stand Created by God burning
bright And then by the poet another in sight
Framed good and framed bad They say that's exactly
industrial land But poetics I see a poet's stand
So perplexing it may, it might Be this or that or
a third invoked fright Well, good clap for her
again. You know, she's hinting to the dilemma we
have of interpretations. And today's class, as you
know, the title of today's class, it is debating
the different interpretations of Blake's The
Tiger. So now, last time, we just tried like to to
touch upon slightly two different interpretations.
Like, the most prominent one is the one about,
like, the tiger is about the industrial
revolution. And the most intellectual one, you
see, I would say, it is about the poetic
imagination. It is about the artistic creation.
So, like, we want to see you interacting today.
And that's why we devised a new plan or a new
strategy of having an experienced teacher with me.
And we are debating. And of course, I'm debating
today against my conviction, which is perhaps an
art of debate. So I'd like people to come this
side to share with Ms. Ahlam, who's ready.
She's adopting the poetic creation. And we're
going to have the poem, yes?
Again, Khaled, we're going to have a debate, like
last time. Okay, you just come here, okay? Please,
anyone who wants to side with her, with them?
Okay, let's see. This is like you come either
side, here or there. So I'm afraid nobody is going
to side with me. Okay, yes. You can have your,
your bring, your bring chairs.
We need the poem though.
Okay, okay.
We need like some people to come on my side. Yes,
it's about industrial revolution.
Okay, you want me to be alone?
Okay, yes? Yes, Rwand? Now we are like the other
Rwand. You see? Yes, do you want like? No, you
just sit Rwand like. We don't have two Rwand. This
will, okay.
No, it's not there. We have it here. So, you need
a mic? Khaled, do they have a mic? Just one mic?
Okay.
It's okay. So, and we have to vote who's winning.
You know, like at the end, there will be a voting.
What do you think? Like, is the tiger about poetic
imagination, artistic imagination? Or is it about,
you know, the Industrial Revolution? Okay. Shall
we start by you? By your team? Yes.
What do you think? Yes.
All right, I think like the era before Blake, the
poetry lacked imagination. They were too concerned
about rationalism and reason and discussing these
themes in their poetry. And then Blake was the pre
-romantic, so he started, or he initiated by his
works, the poetic imagination, a broader sense of
thematic tacklement in his poetry. And here in the
tiger, we saw a lot of indications, like hand,
eye, frame, and then some oxymorons, and he's
showing God's creation, but then he gave us, he
framed it in a way to give us a deeper meaning, to
see what's beyond this creation, to see like he
reflected like the bad and the good, like he
showed us a creation of art. And that's what I see
like is very prominent about this poet, the poem
in particular. Okay, thank you. Dewan, do you want
to add anything? You just come closer here. Yes,
do you want to respond to that? I think that
William Blake is considered one of the romanticism
poets and they were all concerned about
criticizing the industrial revolution and all
their poetry. So he's considered one of them. So
he's also criticizing the industrial revolution.
I think you know you might be true to some extent
because what you said like has to do with the
general you know things you are right it's about
him it's not about the poem it's not about
imagination but like Blake was interested you know
in imagination because he was writing something
against the expectation of his time But I think
here in this poem, it is about industrial
revolution. Like as you see, there are many
references in the poem which assert the fact that
it is about the industrial revolution. This
meticulous process of designing, of framing the
tiger seems to be like it is about industrial
revolution.
It's okay. Okay. So as you said, that the poem
generally talks about a kind of revolution,
whether it is a political revolution or a literary
or again, a poetic revolution, we can consider
both of them inside the poem here, The Tiger. So
this is just as you said before that the poem is
talking about the industrial revolution or the
French or the American revolution, whatever
revolution it is. So we can talk about revolutions
in general. So you are giving me credit. Thank you
very much. You are giving me credit. It's okay. So
from what you have said, again, the Industrial
Revolution, we can talk about the poetic
revolution inside the poem itself. As Jihan
mentioned before too, that the age before William
Blake is the age of reason, as you know. It is the
enlightenment period with all its, again, concerns
about the human mind only without, you know, given
any concern to his feelings, his emotions. I mean
the internal side of the human being. They dealt
with him as a kind of report or machine or
something like that. But here we can take the
tiger as the new creation of art. Okay, thank you
very much, you know, it sounds interesting, but
let us, you know, gently disagree with you. Okay.
And I'm not sure like whether one of my team
members is going to have, you know, yeah, this is
the heart of debating, we have to disagree with
each other. Actually, the poem is like describing
process and like we all know that industrial
revolution is concerned with the process like to
to produce something. And in the tiger, it can be
seen as it symbolized the industrial revolution by
the process of its creation. Yeah, and I'm going
to add to that that if you look here at this
creation, it is a monster-like. It is a monster.
It is like a monster. And what is more monstrous
than the industrial revolution? So here, if you
look at the tiger, It is, you know, very
frightening. It is very horrifying. And yes, that
was, I know some of you would say, what about, you
know, like fearful symmetry? And like, yes, of
course, the Industrial Revolution has its
glimmering, shimmering aspect. But again, it is
deep inside, it has corrupted, it corrupts the
people, it has a moral corruption, social
corruption. So I think this is not like an
ordinary tiger. It is a mythical, it is a monster,
and it reminds me of Chile, Frankenstein. You see
what I mean? Yeah, that's it.
Okay, I want to say from the poem itself, why he
chose the tiger and the lamb. Might he mean the
lamb in his earlier poem, which he read in the
past? So in the line who he wrote the tiger, who
wrote the lamb. So he might be referred to refer
to the poet himself and be the following tiger
which follow the poem The Lamb. So he exactly
chose the lamb and the tiger to show that this is
the... They are created by the same creator. Thank
you very much. Yeah, what do you think? Actually,
the lamb was like the songs of innocence and it
was describing the childhood and the innocence of
a child before they were corrupted as a grown-up
or adult. I think the tiger is like contradictory
to the lamb. As the child grows up, so he will be
corrupted by the industrial revolution to forget
what is the purpose of life, how he can be like
the innocence and good in his heart. Like it would
be replaced by evil and like determination for
more products and for like materialism purposes
mostly. And you want to add anything? As Rawan
said, I agree with her that the tiger is about
industrial revolution because the tiger has two
things, the bad side and the good side. So it
is... It applies to industrial revolution. Yeah,
it has two sides.
So the tiger has two sides, that she is very
fearful, it's very beautiful, at the same time the
industrial revolution maybe it destroys nature,
destroys the countryside, but at the same time it
has something useful, it has a lot of advantages.
Let us stick to their main proposition, which says
we have a difference between the tiger and the
lamb. I think here the question is, the persona in
the poem is exclaiming, is asking, because this is
a monster. Did the one who created the lamb create
thee? So it is surprising, because this is like a
monster. Think of the other side.
Is it a monastery for whom? Yes. The other
question. So it is okay, we can agree that it is a
monastery life, but it is a monastery for whom? Is
it a monastery for the new romantic, the new
period, or for the previous period? I mean before
romanticism, the new classical. So this is another
thing. So if we go again to the fearful symmetry.
Symmetry, it is the shape of poetry. This is what
we can consider here. But it is fearful. Fearful
for whom? Is it fearful for, I mean, the new
generation or the previous generation? So it might
be fearful for them because it is a kind of a
revolutionary one, a rebellious one. Since we can
consider again William Drake as a rebel, as a
revolutionary poet. So here we can go deeply again
inside the poem itself and prove our stand here.
So thank you. It's a strong proposition, you know,
we have to respond. Yes. Also here, like the main
focus, if you see whether the lamp or the tiger,
you see that the main focus, not only the thematic
focus, but also the the stylistic focus is on
creation. Like when you said, OK, there's the good
side and the bad side. This is something like a
like just a part of the theme and you related that
to industrial revolution however if you think of
poetic imagination it includes the theme it
includes this style the references in the poem I
do respect what you say guys but it seems like you
are not looking closely at the poem you are not
looking at the word frame and I think frame It has
to do with artificial. We don't talk about
imagination framing, but framing is
more artificial. When we are talking about
framing, it is more artificial. It is not the job
of imagination. Imagination might have you know,
more superior, but this has to do with framing.
And again, we are talking about the whole creation
as like if you see somebody is seizing the fire,
is seizing the fire, braces, like the place, see?
But the fire as a word is used so much actually by
the romantics to mean something which is eternal.
Something which is immortal. And immortality again
is a key word in romanticism. Yeah, but again this
is a satanic fire. It is a satanic fire. It is
Satan burning bright, you know. It contradicts
with the lamp. So how you can say that it is
satanic and there is a mortal hand and yeah but
look at what a dreaded hand what dreaded feet you
know it is you know it is okay perplexing and it
is actually horrifying for the I mean the previous
generation yeah that's that so also you can see
like you can take the fact that okay there is
something about satanic there's something about
really good and divine yeah but if you look at
that made by the poet himself he managed to frame
it in a way to show you the good and the bad so it
it can be related to anything but if we look at
the real life of the English people how it was
transformed by that hideous Monster, I would say
hideous monster because it transfigured the whole
life of the English people, like people where the
life of the people was mechanical, you know, a lot
of people were abused, you know, women were abused
in the factory. So don't you think this is
satanic? No. It is symmetry, yes. It, you know,
organized, it framed their life from the outside.
They, you know, they were more urbanized. However,
there was moral degradation. There, you know,
there was like political degradation, social
degradation. So we were talking about, you know, a
relapse in human values. well how then do you
explain all the words that refer to creation to
change in the poetic sense of the age like the
previous age used to have different style
different words different references and here the
focus seems to be on changing and shifting that
shifting that style of writing into something more
Yeah, but look here, he's still using the heroic
couplet, you know? So what shift you are taking?
Nine and nine. That's why he's pre-romantic. No,
this is not pre-romantic. No, heroic couplet,
heroic couplet. Heroic couplet is Alexander Pope
and John Drowden. So, you know, and this is, you
know, I think it is mechanical. So if we're
talking about this,
I agree with Dr. Akramdah that it is a mechanical
revolution because he used, as he said, he used
the same complex of the previous era. As a
romantic for what he cannot get rid of actually
all the styles of the previous era. If he wants to
make a revolution, he has to. Even the heroic
couplet, he managed to give it a different feel.
No, but if he wants to make a new revolution, he
has to change everything, to change everything in
the poem. That to convince us about his idea,
about his ideas. That's what they call step by
step. Exactly, that's it. It's not one jump. It's
not like... It is a revolution, so he has to...
No, it's okay, we can help ourselves. I see
somebody from the audience. We have a question,
yes?
So he meant himself like he was a tiger. Poetry.
The new kind of poetry. The new kind of poetry.
This is the tiger. Thank you very much. Very good.
Yes. But again, like, I don't know how would you
look at the word DER it's deadly terror like here
we don't have fearful symmetry but we have deadly
terror Deadly terror, it is, you know, it is here.
Dur, it's deadly, you know? Here, what the hammer,
what the chain, in what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil, what the dread grasp? Dur, it's,
now we are no longer, you know, we are no longer
given this image of the tiger, which is beautiful,
at the same time it is terrible. It is, it is,
it's deadly terror, you know? It can be the old
poetry. It can be deadly terror. Yeah, but old
poetry, how come, you know, it is the terror, you
know? So do you want to say that this creation is
creating something old? No, he's actually
comparing and contrasting, sort of. That's it,
yeah. Yeah, between the old kind of poetry that is
very systemized, very dreadful, very terror. But
again, like- And what dread had, what dread feel,
what this creator or poet is. If you go back to
the, I mean, the first line of the poem here,
tiger fire burning bright. Yes. So the word
burning and bright, both of them. Burning here, it
reflects the efforts. that the poet is exerting to
bring something new which comes again bright
something new yeah it's burning it's like
electricity it's burning burning bright but it has
like a lot of atrocities bring something new which
is bright bright for the new generation but like
look in the forest of the night in the forest what
is the forest of the night it is i mean the old
asias yeah but like who are active at the forest
of the night. Like we are talking about animals,
wild animals, you know, like monsters, deadly
things. You know, this is what we are talking
about. And you know, nobody would approach a
burning bride in the forest. It is dark. So, and
we have the night, which is always traditionally
associated with evil. Which is a bride in the
darkness of the old ages. It is, like, you know,
this applies to machinery, which, you know,
changed the life of the countryside, but it was
like, yes, it changed the life of the countryside,
but how? See? So it might apply to it. So again,
what immortal hand or eye? This is the immortal
hand and the eye of the poet. Of the poet. Because
we mentioned before so many times that poetry is
immortalizing things. Yep. Let's see, let's see
another voice from the audience. Yes?
Thank you very much. And if you look like tiger,
tiger, burning bright, it's like very systematic.
It's like a machine which goes, and if you look
even at the rhythm, you know, it is mechanical. It
has to do with the sound of the machine. Tiger,
tiger, tiger, burning bright. It is a machine
like, yes, yes please. So yeah, you can rally
support. Okay, yes.
Because it's
to do with creation.
Yeah, we use words, we don't use hammers.
Yeah, he could have used like, what words, what
vocabulary you like, you know? But here, with the
hammer, with the chain, you know?
about the word immortal like it's like reflecting
God or something you said or the but maybe it was
how like people at that time looked at industrial
revolution and machines and their product and like
they considered something like supernatural so
that they the extent that they starting to worship
it and not being attention to the countryside and
nature so it might import immortals immortal
reflects the industrial revolution and how people
looked at it
Go ahead. What the hammer? What the chain? In what
furnace was thy brain? What the anvil? What red
grass? There it's dead little grass. is about this
is you know uh you know it can be like look when
the stars look here when the stars threw down
their spears and watered heaven like it is heaven
it seems like the heavenly you know creatures are
angry because of this you know it is something
which provoked the heavenly creatures and they
started to cry they started to feel because you
know it abused like a human life you know it
changed it you know innocence so it is something
you know very monstrous It caused even heaven to
sympathize with the human people. Well, it can be
also referred to. Okay, yes, there, Ola. I
consider the hammer and the chain as not just for
the industrial revolution, but also for the
thoughts, like the hammer and the chain are
thoughts like parents, Yeah, he could have used
pen and you know, he could have used them, you
know, or he could have hinted to that.
Metaphorical. Metaphorical. He compares his
feelings and emotions to the others. So it's not
just the hammers and the chairs. We are not stuck
to the text and such. Now the text is a good
evidence for our symbolic interpretation. Beyond
the meaning. Yeah, it can be he's utilizing the
vocabulary and the senses of the time and the
previous era to attack their reason, their over...
like over rationality and overuse of systematics.
This is very metaphoric and I think you know it is
very metaphoric about this you know is likely to
apply to the poem because as you see like the word
frame as I said and again it is their frame
Because here, daring, you know, we are talking
about something who is rebelling against the
creator. Like, and who is the creature who
rebelled against the creator? You know, it's
Satan. So this is satanic. We have a creature who
is rebelling against the creator, you know?
Because here, dare, you know, the word dare again.
So I think this is about a monstrous, you know,
it's about the machine. It is about the industrial
revolution. This one I strongly believe in. I love
the machine. Ah, okay, thank you very much. Yes,
Rana? But we love poetry more. And we love poetry
more. This poem, the shape of this poem is talking
about just like revolution against poetry. And
William Blake... Yeah, could you tell me how? Yes,
I want to explain. William Blake is a romantic
man, okay? He used the vocabulary of this...
But what is more poetic than, you know, spears?
Because it's part of the poetic diction. Yes, it's
part of the poetic diction. And, you know, we know
that, you know, this is, I think it is, you know,
written by using most of the, you know, poetic
devices used by the pre-Roman, by, you know, the
non-classicals. How about he's using both
dictions, he's using the aspiring, the emotional
words and he's also using the bad and you know
hammer and all these to draw a comparison, which
one do you prefer? Do you prefer the imagination
and the you know the beautiful beautified?
Plague said when the stars threw down their
spears. I think in this stanza, he's referring to
Milton's Paradise Lost because when Satan rebuilt
against God, he took his angels and he were in
battle in heaven. And then when the angels beat
Satan and his angels, they were extended to hell
and when and did he smile his work to see like it
reflect when God smiles about the angels that were
defeated when they sins against him and this also
about men can be applied about mankind when a
mankind like when a man is sins against God he
will be in heaven and did I agree, I agree, but
whoever said that Satan is necessarily the
industrial revolution. No, it's not that. Satan
can be the bad party. Satan can be the evil. Yeah.
The evil and that side of industrial revolution.
Imagination devoid. Okay, we need somebody to
reconcile between us.
And you said spears, like in Milton's Paradise
Lost, angels used spears to beat other angels and
with their tears they were crying for their
brothers who disappointed God and were punished by
Him to be in hell. Like it's all referring to the
evil side of the poetic. Yeah, the evil side of
not having imagination in your poetry, of removing
all kinds of imagination. And who cries, and why
spears, who smiles. Like you said, it's a
metaphoric thing to refer to the mind. It's not
metaphysical to have a very metaphorical thing.
Yeah, how the romantic poetry changed the life of
him. I'll tell you, like, the entire... Now, give
me one positive thing about how the romantic, you
know, or how the romantic imagination changed, you
know, the face of England. Yeah, it did. I think,
you know, this is, you know, a fallacy because
even the Romantic period was anti-romantic, you
know, more abuse of children, more abuse of women.
So, yeah, there was like imagination, like they
talk about like man's free will, but Give me just
one thing to indicate, you know, that the romantic
imagination transfigured or changed the life of
the English people to the rest. Of course it
changed and it was significant. If it weren't, we
wouldn't be studying it right now. And we wouldn't
have studied UClassical. And it changed the entire
era of romanticism. I think you should agree with
us that the Romantic Age was anti-romantic. And
this like, you know, I think Ms. Ahlam wants to
share with me that, you know, the Romantic Age was
not romantic. And this is the great paradox
itself. It was not romantic. But then they were
speaking about it because they liked it in their
real life. So they wanted to voice it out. Yeah,
but like, okay, here, if we are talking about
revolutions, like, you know, poetic revolutions,
yes, like, it is very devastating. But it wouldn't
be a revolution. He didn't publish his work at
that time. If he published it, then it would be a
revolution at the same time. But he, like...
Because it was dangerous. Tell me a poet who
published his work while he was... Exactly. Yeah,
most of the poets, like, privileged poets. Okay,
it seems like we have one question. They don't
know that those who raise questions, they gain
marks. You see, if you, so I'm adding one mark to
Rana and I'm adding one mark to who? Like, yes,
they are gaining two marks. So you don't know. I,
I was, okay. You support or you support either
team. You are gaining more credit. Yes. Still,
like the auction is available. The auction is
available. Yes. Who? Now she's done guess, she's
taking the course. It might be from the other
class. Maybe he hit two birds with one stone.
Maybe he meant by tiger as that of the previous
nation's era of poets. Or maybe he is talking
about the industrial revolution. According to
these words, it's really... Yeah, but you have
like, when you are answering in the exam, you have
to commit yourself to one. Okay. Yes? I think he
talks about the industrial revolution. The first
standard of the last standard, I want to explain
this class itself. Perlin tried to set about a
machinery that burns coal to make new products,
which saves time and effort. The force of these
machines worked all day without stopping. And what
immortal Hector and I refer to the inventors,
their names are still mentioned until today. So
their names are immortal. Their frame is a triple
symmetry. This side of industrial revolution have
a good side and bad side. The good side with the
new products, saving efforts, money, time. And the
dark side with the corruption Thank you, thank you
for supporting. Anybody wants to support the other
team? Like I think Ola is supporting them. Yeah, I
just want to say that Instagram just initiated the
reconciliation from the bargaining team when she
said that this forum is about revolution, whatever
that revolution is against the industrial
revolution or against the Yeah, but here we are
debating, you know, we are debating. We don't want
to reconcile. I think, you know, she's giving us
credit when she reconciled, you know, because she
is giving us credit. And, you know, I was very
happy when she started doing that, you know,
because she was giving us credit right from the
very beginning. Okay, I know. Thank you very much.
It's been a very interesting debate. Yes, you can
add something. I want to say that William Blake
was known for being so influenced by a traditional
theme, which is Greek gods. And we can see that
in, for example, the hammer and the chain.
Actually, it kind of refers to a Greek god. It's
called Hippothos, I think. It was a blacksmith god
who was making weapons for other gods. And they
were disdaining him for his ugliness. And then,
also, who sees fire. It can also refer to
Prometheus' pound. when he sees fire to mankind
again is the will of Zeus. Also with the wings, it
can be refers to, I think, Achilles or something.
Well, this can actually be used against you
because it's classical time. That's all they
focused about. Maybe he's trying to use this to
actually attack them because most of their poetry
use a lot of these. No, but he's sticking to a
very traditional theme. Use the Greek mythology.
I'm logging a dead horse, in fact, you know? Okay,
guys, I want to finish this wonderful debate, but
again, thank you very much for listening, and I
want to tell you, me and Ahlam embrace the notion
that this is about poetic imagination. Okay, and
as I told you, you know, I am the one, but I don't
mind if you want like to take that, you know, to
that extreme because it might be about, but like,
yes, me and Ms. Ahlam and we play this track, you
know, we think, but some other people, strongly
think it is about industrial revolution, and we
don't mind, just like giving us the evidence. He
means industrial revolution in a direct way, but
about Gothic imagination in a direct way. Okay,
yeah, so it is figurative and literal, but again,
I think the BBC interpretation, like a couple of
years ago, I brought this, BBC, do you remember
when I brought the BBC interpretation? And most of
the critics asserted that it was about industrial
revolution, which I didn't like, and I tried to
bring interpretation which was quite different.
Yes, the last? As a student in the exam, can we
depend Yeah, of course you can choose either of
them, but like again, you have to go and to bring
evidence to substantiate whatever you want to say.
Thank you very much for listening. Thank you. And
clap for this team. And clap for the other team.
Thank you very much. Bye bye.